Hi Mark,

Thanks for your reply, and no problem with the delayed response. I knew you were away from a note you left.

I don't know what a DSN looks like, but there is only that 1 attachment.

Below is the whole thing including headers and unsubscribe email attachment.

BTW, does this list allow me to attach files? Might do that next time.

I've obfuscated some parts with "XXX". Here it is. See more comments below the email.

Return-Path: <mailman-bounces@serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com> Delivered-To: terry@XXX.net Received: from serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com by serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com with LMTP id gHWCD8eMplm6SwAA9jRSrA for <terry@XXX.net>; Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:39 -0500 Return-path: <mailman-bounces@serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com> Envelope-to: terry@XXX.net Delivery-date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:39 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=58524 helo=serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com) by serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <mailman-bounces@serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com>) id 1dmznb-00069e-4b for terry@XXX.net; Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:39 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=58490 helo=serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com) by serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <all-bounces@riveXXX.org.nz>) id 1dmznZ-000681-Me for all-owner@riveXXX.org.nz; Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:37 -0500 Subject: Bounce action notification From: mailman@riveXXX.org.nz To: all-owner@riveXXX.org.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4320979077890092118==" Message-ID: <mailman.4.1504087236.1346.all_riveXXX.org.nz@riveXXX.org.nz> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:36 -0500 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: all@riveXXX.org.nz X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 List-Id: RLC All <all.riveXXX.org.nz> X-List-Administrivia: yes Errors-To: mailman-bounces@serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com Sender: "ALL" <mailman-bounces@serverXXX.webhostingbuzz.com>

--===============4320979077890092118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is a Mailman mailing list bounce action notice:

List:       ALL
Member:     terry@XXX.net
Action:     Subscription bounce score incremented.
Reason:     Excessive or fatal bounces.

The triggering bounce notice is attached below.

Questions? Contact the Mailman site administrator at mailman@riveXXX.org.nz.

--===============4320979077890092118== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0

MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: ALL unsubscribe notification From: mailman-bounces@riveXXX.org.nz To: all-owner@riveXXX.org.nz Precedence: list Message-ID: <mailman.0.1504087235.23494.all_riveXXX.org.nz@riveXXX.org.nz> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 05:00:35 -0500 X-BeenThere: all@riveXXX.org.nz X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 List-Id: RLC All <all.riveXXX.org.nz> X-List-Administrivia: yes Errors-To: mailman-bounces@riveXXX.org.nz Sender: "ALL" <mailman-bounces@riveXXX.org.nz>

XXX@XXXtraining.co.nz has been removed from ALL.

--===============4320979077890092118==--

That's the end of it.

In this case my email address is both the owner and an UNmoderated member of the list, but I get the same problem when the owner address is not a member of the list at all. If I click my email address link from the Membership List page, it says this near the top, in case it is relevant:

"We have received some recent bounces from your address. Your current bounce score is 2.0 out of a maximum of 20.0. Please double check that your subscribed address is correct and that there are no problems with delivery to this address. Your bounce score will be automatically reset if the problems are corrected soon."

Also, sometimes I might receive emails relating to subscribes but not unsubscribes.

I think all these problems started happening in the last year or so, on lists which I've had for years without such problems.

Some of my lists still don't seem to have any of these problems, but I haven't worked out what's different about them yet.

I can delete & recreate a list as a test, if required.

Thanks Mark.

Terry

From: Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> Sent: 29 August 2017 10:09 To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] "Bounce action notification" emails for subscribes/unsubscribes

Sorry for the delayed reply. I've been away.

On 08/18/2017 08:11 PM, Terry . wrote:

But in recent months I’ve noticed that, as list owner, when I subscribe or unsubscribe someone, instead of just receiving an email with the subject: “<listname> subscription notification” or: “<listname> unsubscribe notification” I receive an email with the subject: “Bounce action notification” Which contains:

“This is a Mailman mailing list bounce action notice:

    List:       Bro   [for example]

    Member:     mylistadminaddress@mydomain.com   [for example]

    Action:     Subscription bounce score incremented.

    Reason:     Excessive or fatal bounces.

The triggering bounce notice is attached below.

Questions? Contact the Mailman site administrator at mailman@somedomain.com<mailto:mailman@somedomain.com>.”   [for example]

And that email contains an ATTACHMENT which has the subject: “<listname> subscription notification” or: “<listname> unsubscribe notification”

This is very strange. What seems to be happening is the (un)subscription notification is bouncing, causing a bounce notification to be sent to the list owner, but a bounce notification should only be sent if the original (bounced) message was to a list member, not the owner.

Also the bounce notification should also have an attached DSN with details of why the (un)subscription notification bounced. What does that say?

Notes:

• This didn’t used to happen with these same lists, and I don’t know what’s triggered the change in behaviour.

• Even if I change the list “owner” address to another of my addresses, it still happens.

• I have admin_notify_mchanges set to “Yes”.

• I don’t have any moderators set up.

OK

Questions:

Q1. Is this a known issue?

No

Q2. What’s the likely cause of this problem suddenly starting to happen?

Post the full raw bounce action notice with all headers and MIME parts and I might be able to say more.

Q3. What’s the likely solution?

See Q2

Q4. Do you need any more info to troubleshoot the cause of this? If so, what, exactly?

See Q2

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

Hi again Mark,

I would like to see all of the MTA (Exim) log messages relating to the messages with Message-IDs <mailman.0.1504087235.23494.all_riveXXX.org.nz@riveXXX.org.nz> and <mailman.4.1504087236.1346.all_riveXXX.org.nz@riveXXX.org.nz>.

Also, Mailman's bounce, smtp and smtp-failure log messages from around Wed, 30 Aug 2017 04:45 to 05:01 may help.

Although, this appears to be cPanel, so you may not have access to these things - see <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030641>.

You're right - I don't have such access, but thanks for the interesting link. I'm not yet sure if the webhost will provide these, but I might ask them if needed.

However, here's the latest development. I created bugtest1@whatever-domain.com lists for each of my 7 domains, then for each list, I:

• Set owner to my address,

• Set admin_notify_mchanges to "Yes",

• Took a few other Yes/No options which shouldn't matter, the same for each list),

• Subscribed X address to the list,

• Then unsubscribed X address from the list.

The result was, only 3 of the 7 lists sent me subscription and unsubscribe emails. The other 4 sent nothing! (I confirmed this from the command line where I could see the emails which I received a few levels under the ~/mail directory on the server. I also confirmed the lists are basically the same by dumping & comparing their settings with a Perl script I wrote, which uses Perl's WWW::Mailman module.)

Does it sound as if cPanel or the webhost have caused some problems with the mailman installation?

Should I take this up with the webhost, (who will probably have to pass it on to cPanel), or do you have any ideas?

I'm using cPanel 11 66.0.17, in case anyone is interested.

Thanks again.

Terry

On 08/31/2017 01:29 AM, Terry . wrote:

However, here's the latest development. I created bugtest1@whatever-domain.com lists for each of my 7 domains, then for each list, I:

• Set owner to my address,

• Set admin_notify_mchanges to "Yes",

• Took a few other Yes/No options which shouldn't matter, the same for each list),

• Subscribed X address to the list,

• Then unsubscribed X address from the list.

The result was, only 3 of the 7 lists sent me subscription and unsubscribe emails. The other 4 sent nothing!

Are the list's archiving? Does anything end up in the list archives, i.e., posted to the list?

Does it sound as if cPanel or the webhost have caused some problems with the mailman installation?

Yes, it does.

Should I take this up with the webhost, (who will probably have to pass it on to cPanel), or do you have any ideas?

I am out of ideas. I am willing to work with the webhost and/or cPanel if they contact me, but I don't think I can do any more without information that's not available to you.

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan