Setting up redundant mailing lists in OS X Snow Leopard.
Hi, everyone.
First I wish to say hello to everyone as I am a new member and this is my first post to the list. I have just purchased a Mac server with Snow Leopard server installed and one of the main reasons for the purchase was my plan to set-up some mailing lists. The following are some questions I have:
While setting up Mailman mailing lists under Snow Leopard Server I've run into some questions and thought I would ask here for help. These are the questions:
Q1. In Mailman how are mailing list subscribers set-up ? Are subscribers set-up separately or do they have to be set-up as users in Workgroup Manager ?
I would prefer to set-up subscribers to the mailing lists separately as they are not members of my workgroup. Is there a configuration pane under Mailman mailing lists for setting up subscribers ?
Q2. I am trying to set-up two versions of each mailing list so that one version allows attachments to be forwarded to subscribers along with the posts while the other version blocks the attachments and only forwards the text portion of the post. How can this be set-up in Mailman ? How can I manage attachment rules in Mailman and create this redundant mailing lists ? Where are attachments sent along with posts to the lists saved in OS X (folder address) ?
Thank you,
Joseph
JRC Groups wrote:
While setting up Mailman mailing lists under Snow Leopard Server I've run into some questions and thought I would ask here for help. These are the questions:
Q1. In Mailman how are mailing list subscribers set-up ? Are subscribers set-up separately or do they have to be set-up as users in Workgroup Manager ?
List members are managed by Mailman as email addresses. They have nothing to do with users on your server.
I would prefer to set-up subscribers to the mailing lists separately as they are not members of my workgroup. Is there a configuration pane under Mailman mailing lists for setting up subscribers ?
If you ignore Apple's GUI and just use Mailman's web admin interface, you can 'mass subscribe' members.
There are also command-line tools for adding members and syncing membership with a flat file.
There are others on this list who know more about Apple's OS-X server implementation of Mailman, but I'm not one of them.
Q2. I am trying to set-up two versions of each mailing list so that one version allows attachments to be forwarded to subscribers along with the posts while the other version blocks the attachments and only forwards the text portion of the post. How can this be set-up in Mailman ? How can I manage attachment rules in Mailman and create this redundant mailing lists ? Where are attachments sent along with posts to the lists saved in OS X (folder address) ?
I'm not sure I understand the question. You can set up two lists with two different names. Use Mailman's Content Filtering to specify what will be accepted and what will be filtered out. If you mean you want posts to be sent to one address and some people to receive attachments and some not, you can use an umbrella list for this (search the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3> for "umbrella")
Where are attachments sent along with posts to the lists saved in OS X (folder address) ?
Attachments not removed by content filtering are saved in the list's archives. in a default Mailman install, this would be in sub-directories of /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/. I think in OS-X server, this translates to /var/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/ or /private/var/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/QoA9>.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Hello, Mark.
Thank you for your reply and answers.
On 12/30/09 6:47 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
List members are managed by Mailman as email addresses. They have nothing to do with users on your server.
Good to know. This makes setting up new members much easier and simpler.
If you ignore Apple's GUI and just use Mailman's web admin interface, you can 'mass subscribe' members.
There are also command-line tools for adding members and syncing membership with a flat file.
When you mention flat file are you referring to a plain text file ? If so, what specific format (or encoding) should be used for this file ? How exactly should it be formatted ?
There are others on this list who know more about Apple's OS-X server implementation of Mailman, but I'm not one of them.
Q2. I am trying to set-up two versions of each mailing list so that one version allows attachments to be forwarded to subscribers along with the posts while the other version blocks the attachments and only forwards the text portion of the post. How can this be set-up in Mailman ? How can I manage attachment rules in Mailman and create this redundant mailing lists ? Where are attachments sent along with posts to the lists saved in OS X (folder address) ?
I'm not sure I understand the question. You can set up two lists with two different names. Use Mailman's Content Filtering to specify what will be accepted and what will be filtered out. If you mean you want posts to be sent to one address and some people to receive attachments and some not, you can use an umbrella list for this (search the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3> for "umbrella")
The idea is to have a way to control or manage attachments on a per user base. I've experienced this is the past with mailings lists I have subscribed. Many subscribers are on fast broadband these days and like to receive images and other attachments along with their messages. On the other hand there are those who are on slow connections and even dial-up. These don't like to receive attachments as they slow things down and take a while to download specially when the list is a busy one with numerous posts per day. My idea was to set-up two separate lists. Posts would be sent to one single address and then forwarded to two lists - one with and one without attachments. Subscribers would have the option to subscribe to one list or the other depending on whether they chose to receive attachments.
According to what you stated above it seems there is a fairly simpler way to accomplishing this task. I've looked at the pages describing the "umbrella" list concept. It is certainly an option to keep in mind but I would prefer another simpler solution as I noticed the notes about possible problems and workarounds.
Is there a way to set-up user preferences so that every user can have its subscription set to either receive or block attachments ? This would make things a lot easier and allow me to address this issue very easily.
Where are attachments sent along with posts to the lists saved in OS X (folder address) ?
Attachments not removed by content filtering are saved in the list's archives. in a default Mailman install, this would be in sub-directories of /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/. I think in OS-X server, this translates to /var/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/ or /private/var/mailman/archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/QoA9>.
Can content filtering be set-up to block or allow certain specific types of files ? Considering the answer to be yes, would it be possible to set content filtering to allow images files but place a restriction on the size and/or resolution of the files sent as attachments ?
Thank you again for your reply and helpful answers.
Joe
JRC Groups wrote:
On 12/30/09 6:47 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
There are also command-line tools for adding members and syncing membership with a flat file.
When you mention flat file are you referring to a plain text file ? If so, what specific format (or encoding) should be used for this file ? How exactly should it be formatted ?
Yes, a plain text file with one address per line. Addresses can be formatted in any standard (RFC 2822 compliant) way. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/YoA9> for some examples.
I'm not sure I understand the question. You can set up two lists with two different names. Use Mailman's Content Filtering to specify what will be accepted and what will be filtered out. If you mean you want posts to be sent to one address and some people to receive attachments and some not, you can use an umbrella list for this (search the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3> for "umbrella")
The idea is to have a way to control or manage attachments on a per user base. I've experienced this is the past with mailings lists I have subscribed. Many subscribers are on fast broadband these days and like to receive images and other attachments along with their messages. On the other hand there are those who are on slow connections and even dial-up. These don't like to receive attachments as they slow things down and take a while to download specially when the list is a busy one with numerous posts per day. My idea was to set-up two separate lists. Posts would be sent to one single address and then forwarded to two lists - one with and one without attachments. Subscribers would have the option to subscribe to one list or the other depending on whether they chose to receive attachments.
According to what you stated above it seems there is a fairly simpler way to accomplishing this task. I've looked at the pages describing the "umbrella" list concept. It is certainly an option to keep in mind but I would prefer another simpler solution as I noticed the notes about possible problems and workarounds.
I think an umbrella list is appropriate for your requirement. Most of the issues with umbrella lists have to do with people who are members of more than one subordinate list receiving multiple copies of posts, but you won't have people who are members of both subordinates.
Is there a way to set-up user preferences so that every user can have its subscription set to either receive or block attachments ? This would make things a lot easier and allow me to address this issue very easily.
This cannot be done in current Mailman except perhaps by overloading some existing user option and either implementing a custom handler (see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9>) or modifying the existing MimeDel (content filtering) handler to process it.
Can content filtering be set-up to block or allow certain specific types of files ? Considering the answer to be yes, would it be possible to set content filtering to allow images files but place a restriction on the size and/or resolution of the files sent as attachments ?
Content filtering is set per list (the sub-lists in your case). It passes or filters MIME message parts based on MIME content type, and also optionally on 'extension' of attached files. Content filtering per se does not have a way to deal with the size of any attached message parts or the resolution of any image/* parts, but there is a maximum message size (for new lists in a default install, this defaults to 40KB) that applies to all messages on a per list basis that will result in all messages exceeding that size being held for moderator approval.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Hi, Mark.
On 1/1/10 8:46 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
JRC Groups wrote:
On 12/30/09 6:47 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
There are also command-line tools for adding members and syncing membership with a flat file.
When you mention flat file are you referring to a plain text file ? If so, what specific format (or encoding) should be used for this file ? How exactly should it be formatted ?
Yes, a plain text file with one address per line. Addresses can be formatted in any standard (RFC 2822 compliant) way. See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/YoA9> for some examples.
Thanks. I will definitely look into this as it seems to be the perfect solution for my case and a way to make it simple to manage subscriptions.
I'm not sure I understand the question. You can set up two lists with two different names. Use Mailman's Content Filtering to specify what will be accepted and what will be filtered out. If you mean you want posts to be sent to one address and some people to receive attachments and some not, you can use an umbrella list for this (search the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3> for "umbrella")
The idea is to have a way to control or manage attachments on a per user base. I've experienced this is the past with mailings lists I have subscribed. Many subscribers are on fast broadband these days and like to receive images and other attachments along with their messages. On the other hand there are those who are on slow connections and even dial-up. These don't like to receive attachments as they slow things down and take a while to download specially when the list is a busy one with numerous posts per day. My idea was to set-up two separate lists. Posts would be sent to one single address and then forwarded to two lists - one with and one without attachments. Subscribers would have the option to subscribe to one list or the other depending on whether they chose to receive attachments.
According to what you stated above it seems there is a fairly simpler way to accomplishing this task. I've looked at the pages describing the "umbrella" list concept. It is certainly an option to keep in mind but I would prefer another simpler solution as I noticed the notes about possible problems and workarounds.
I think an umbrella list is appropriate for your requirement. Most of the issues with umbrella lists have to do with people who are members of more than one subordinate list receiving multiple copies of posts, but you won't have people who are members of both subordinates.
This is indeed the case. All subscribers will either belong to one list or the other. Never both. One of the issues I noticed when reading the post has to do with replies from subscribers. Considering subscribers are either receiving mail from Sublist1 or Sublist2 but post are mailed to UmbrellaList1 what happens when a subscriber replies to a post ? Since he received it from (let's say) Sublist1 wouldn't the reply be sent back to the same list ? How can this be resolved in setting up this system ?
Is there a way to set-up user preferences so that every user can have its subscription set to either receive or block attachments ? This would make things a lot easier and allow me to address this issue very easily.
This cannot be done in current Mailman except perhaps by overloading some existing user option and either implementing a custom handler (see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9>) or modifying the existing MimeDel (content filtering) handler to process it.
Let's not go there. Already sounds way too complicated. May I suggest this for future releases as a feature request ? I think this would be very helpful and a feature all administrators would really benefit from.
Can content filtering be set-up to block or allow certain specific types of files ? Considering the answer to be yes, would it be possible to set content filtering to allow images files but place a restriction on the size and/or resolution of the files sent as attachments ?
Content filtering is set per list (the sub-lists in your case). It passes or filters MIME message parts based on MIME content type, and also optionally on 'extension' of attached files. Content filtering per se does not have a way to deal with the size of any attached message parts or the resolution of any image/* parts, but there is a maximum message size (for new lists in a default install, this defaults to 40KB) that applies to all messages on a per list basis that will result in all messages exceeding that size being held for moderator approval.
Same thing here. Would it be possible to add this as a feature request ? I think it would really beneficial to have limits set-up per list and also some control over the way individual subscribers receive their posts. Some might like attachments while others may prefer to have them blocked.
Thank you again for your replies and really helpful suggestions.
Joe
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, JRC Groups wrote:
This is indeed the case. All subscribers will either belong to one list or the other. Never both. One of the issues I noticed when reading the post has to do with replies from subscribers. Considering subscribers are either receiving mail from Sublist1 or Sublist2 but post are mailed to UmbrellaList1 what happens when a subscriber replies to a post ? Since he received it from (let's say) Sublist1 wouldn't the reply be sent back to the same list ? How can this be resolved in setting up this system ?
Set each sublist to reply to a specific address and fill in your posting address there. This is in the General settings.
Cheers, Geoff.
Geoff Shang wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, JRC Groups wrote:
This is indeed the case. All subscribers will either belong to one list or the other. Never both. One of the issues I noticed when reading the post has to do with replies from subscribers. Considering subscribers are either receiving mail from Sublist1 or Sublist2 but post are mailed to UmbrellaList1 what happens when a subscriber replies to a post ? Since he received it from (let's say) Sublist1 wouldn't the reply be sent back to the same list ? How can this be resolved in setting up this system ?
Set each sublist to reply to a specific address and fill in your posting address there. This is in the General settings.
But you probably don't need to mung the reply-to, at least for the sublists. Assuming no reply-to munging at all, the original post will always be From: the OP and To: the umbrella. Thus reply will go to the OP and reply-all to the OP and the umbrella, just as for a non-umbrella case.
If you want to mung a reply-to, munging the umbrella to reply-to the umbrella should suffice as that reply-to will pass through the sublists unchanged.
The only place you have a problem is if the member's MUA offers list reply based on the List-Post: header. This then may go to that member's sublist only. The answer to this is to set include_rfc2369_headers or at least include_list_post_header to No on the sublists.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Hi, Mark.
On 1/4/10 9:38 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
But you probably don't need to mung the reply-to, at least for the sublists. Assuming no reply-to munging at all, the original post will always be From: the OP and To: the umbrella. Thus reply will go to the OP and reply-all to the OP and the umbrella, just as for a non-umbrella case.
Shouldn't it be the other way around ? Most lists I either belong or have belonged to work the opposite way. Reply always sends to the list and Reply All goes to the list and OP.
If you want to mung a reply-to, munging the umbrella to reply-to the umbrella should suffice as that reply-to will pass through the sublists unchanged.
The only place you have a problem is if the member's MUA offers list reply based on the List-Post: header. This then may go to that member's sublist only. The answer to this is to set include_rfc2369_headers or at least include_list_post_header to No on the sublists.
Since I have no way of knowing these details for every subscriber (whether the subscriber's MUA offers reply based on the List-Post: header as you stated) would it cause any problems to make it standard procedure to set those commands to no as you suggested above ?
Thank you for your help.
Joe
JRC Groups wrote:
On 1/4/10 9:38 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
But you probably don't need to mung the reply-to, at least for the sublists. Assuming no reply-to munging at all, the original post will always be From: the OP and To: the umbrella. Thus reply will go to the OP and reply-all to the OP and the umbrella, just as for a non-umbrella case.
Shouldn't it be the other way around ? Most lists I either belong or have belonged to work the opposite way. Reply always sends to the list and Reply All goes to the list and OP.
This is a very old argument with hardened opinions on both sides. See <http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html> and <http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html>.
All I will say here is that if you put a Reply-To: <the list> in the delivered posts, it makes it difficult to reply to the poster since the post is From: <the poster> and To: <the list> with Reply-To: <the list>. For most MUAs (and per RFCs) Reply-To: overrides From: for purposes of replying so 'reply' goes to the list and 'reply all' goes to the list (Reply-To:) and the list (To:).
If you want to mung a reply-to, munging the umbrella to reply-to the umbrella should suffice as that reply-to will pass through the sublists unchanged.
The only place you have a problem is if the member's MUA offers list reply based on the List-Post: header. This then may go to that member's sublist only. The answer to this is to set include_rfc2369_headers or at least include_list_post_header to No on the sublists.
Since I have no way of knowing these details for every subscriber (whether the subscriber's MUA offers reply based on the List-Post: header as you stated) would it cause any problems to make it standard procedure to set those commands to no as you suggested above ?
Mailman is somewhat deficient in this area as far as being fully RFC 2369 compliant when sublists are involved. Strictly speaking, the List-Unsubscribe header in a received post should be from the sub list that the recipient is subscribed to, but in your case, the List-Post: header should be for the parent. The closest you can come is to set include_rfc2369_headers and include_list_post_header both to Yes on the parent (you can't include List-Post: without including the others) and set include_list_post_header to No on the children.
Whether to set include_rfc2369_headers to Yes or to No on the children is a toss-up. Yes will include both list's headers which could be confusing, but No will include only the parent's headers which may not be the preferable ones.
As far as causing problems, the only significant problem is that some MUA that offers an unsubscribe based on the List-Unsubscribe: header may go to the parent list instead of the relevant child. The avoidance is to set include_rfc2369_headers to No on all the lists. You will be omitting some desirable information, but at least there won't be any wrong information.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 1/4/10 9:11 AM, "Geoff Shang" <geoff@QuiteLikely.com> wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, JRC Groups wrote:
This is indeed the case. All subscribers will either belong to one list or the other. Never both. One of the issues I noticed when reading the post has to do with replies from subscribers. Considering subscribers are either receiving mail from Sublist1 or Sublist2 but post are mailed to UmbrellaList1 what happens when a subscriber replies to a post ? Since he received it from (let's say) Sublist1 wouldn't the reply be sent back to the same list ? How can this be resolved in setting up this system ?
Set each sublist to reply to a specific address and fill in your posting address there. This is in the General settings.
Cheers, Geoff.
This is what I needed to know. It seems this will be simple enough to set-up.
Thanks, Geoff.
Joe
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JRC Groups wrote:
On 1/1/10 8:46 AM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
JRC Groups wrote:
[...]
I think an umbrella list is appropriate for your requirement. Most of the issues with umbrella lists have to do with people who are members of more than one subordinate list receiving multiple copies of posts, but you won't have people who are members of both subordinates.
This is indeed the case. All subscribers will either belong to one list or the other. Never both. One of the issues I noticed when reading the post has to do with replies from subscribers. Considering subscribers are either receiving mail from Sublist1 or Sublist2 but post are mailed to UmbrellaList1 what happens when a subscriber replies to a post ? Since he received it from (let's say) Sublist1 wouldn't the reply be sent back to the same list ? How can this be resolved in setting up this system ?
See my reply to Geoff Shang's reply.
Is there a way to set-up user preferences so that every user can have its subscription set to either receive or block attachments ? This would make things a lot easier and allow me to address this issue very easily.
This cannot be done in current Mailman except perhaps by overloading some existing user option and either implementing a custom handler (see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/l4A9>) or modifying the existing MimeDel (content filtering) handler to process it.
Let's not go there. Already sounds way too complicated. May I suggest this for future releases as a feature request ? I think this would be very helpful and a feature all administrators would really benefit from.
The best place to submit feature requests is to the tracker at <https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman>.
Can content filtering be set-up to block or allow certain specific types of files ? Considering the answer to be yes, would it be possible to set content filtering to allow images files but place a restriction on the size and/or resolution of the files sent as attachments ?
Content filtering is set per list (the sub-lists in your case). It passes or filters MIME message parts based on MIME content type, and also optionally on 'extension' of attached files. Content filtering per se does not have a way to deal with the size of any attached message parts or the resolution of any image/* parts, but there is a maximum message size (for new lists in a default install, this defaults to 40KB) that applies to all messages on a per list basis that will result in all messages exceeding that size being held for moderator approval.
Same thing here. Would it be possible to add this as a feature request ?
See above.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
JRC Groups wrote:
Is there a way to set-up user preferences so that every user can have its subscription set to either receive or block attachments ? This would make things a lot easier and allow me to address this issue very easily.
It might be easier to achieve with user education. Many 'modern' mail clients can be configured to automatically (or not) download attachments and whether (or not) to display images. I know Thunderbird does this, and IIRC outlook will, too. And, of course, web mail generally doesn't download anything (except images, that's usually configurable) until someone clicks on the link.
z!
Carl Zwanzig wrote:
It might be easier to achieve with user education. Many 'modern' mail clients can be configured to automatically (or not) download attachments and whether (or not) to display images. I know Thunderbird does this, and IIRC outlook will, too.
If you really mean 'attachments' and not just things like remote images linked from HTML message parts, this would require IMAP access to the mail server. POP3 protocol only has the TOP command for retrieving partial messages and all it can do is retrieve the headers and the first n body lines (body in the RFC 822 sense where the body includes all the MIME headers, boundaries, etc.). Further, most POP clients just retrieve all new messages on the server in their entirety when asked to 'check mail'.
And even with IMAP, it seems that at least Thunderbird with it's new 3.0 'Synchronize IMAP Messages' feature is moving towards unconditionally downloading all messages in their entirety.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Hi, Mark.
Thanks for your really helpful replies to my posts.
On 1/1/10 12:43 PM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
Carl Zwanzig wrote:
It might be easier to achieve with user education. Many 'modern' mail clients can be configured to automatically (or not) download attachments and whether (or not) to display images. I know Thunderbird does this, and IIRC outlook will, too.
If you really mean 'attachments' and not just things like remote images linked from HTML message parts, this would require IMAP access to the mail server. POP3 protocol only has the TOP command for retrieving partial messages and all it can do is retrieve the headers and the first n body lines (body in the RFC 822 sense where the body includes all the MIME headers, boundaries, etc.). Further, most POP clients just retrieve all new messages on the server in their entirety when asked to 'check mail'.
And even with IMAP, it seems that at least Thunderbird with it's new 3.0 'Synchronize IMAP Messages' feature is moving towards unconditionally downloading all messages in their entirety.
I just read your post above after replying to Carl's and it became clear that this is not the right approach for my case.
Considering this I will try some of the other solutions you have suggested as I want to make this a simple and straightforward experience for my subscribers.
Thanks,
Joe
Hi, Carl.
Thanks for your reply and helpful suggestion.
On 1/1/10 11:49 AM, "Carl Zwanzig" <cpz@tuunq.com> wrote:
JRC Groups wrote:
Is there a way to set-up user preferences so that every user can have its subscription set to either receive or block attachments ? This would make things a lot easier and allow me to address this issue very easily.
It might be easier to achieve with user education. Many 'modern' mail clients can be configured to automatically (or not) download attachments and whether (or not) to display images. I know Thunderbird does this, and IIRC outlook will, too. And, of course, web mail generally doesn't download anything (except images, that's usually configurable) until someone clicks on the link.
z!
The problem I have with this approach is the fact that I depend on users to do this. Over the years I've noticed that the target audience for mailing lists can basically be divided into two groups: tech-inclined subscribers and non-tech friendly folks.
The lists I am creating are unfortunately for the second group. This is my target audience and I would benefit from making it as simple as I can for them.
I will keep your suggestion in mind and try it in case I am not able to implement another solution.
Thanks again,
Joe
participants (4)
-
Carl Zwanzig -
Geoff Shang -
JRC Groups -
Mark Sapiro