Dear all happy campers,
I need to upgrade from Mailman 2.1 - my hardware needs upgrading (badly) and the address mangling is having my subscribers rip their hair out. I need to get this done before they start on my already thinning hair!
I’m ready and eager to move on to MM3 on a Linux box. First I tried to install it myself. After all, I had installed MM2 and it worked fine until AOL and Yahoo messed it up, My computer (an iMac) presents with a black screen on startup and is apt to die at any moment. I ran into trouble some 4/5 through the installation - I simply got lost in jingo. I then hired a pro, but he had real-life issues that kept him distracted and he also had trouble with the installation. I switched to a second pro, a friend, who has tried valiantly for a few months (on and off) but has basically given up now. This is his latest comment on his efforts after I (gently) nagged him:
Hi Allan,
I have looked into it a few times now and I keep running into the same blocks. I don't see much moving either. I was hoping someone (Mailman developing community) would come up with a better working solution.
My concern is that the Mailman3 is not ready. There are too many dead ends and undocumented stuff. For Mailman2 I have a working integration with iRedMail, that does not seem to work with 3.
So far I don't have anyone who knows how to make Mailman3 work integrated with iRedMail (or similar). Things I have tried and documented are not a conclusive working installation.
So, is MM3 ready for the big screen? If so, is there some way/how/where/when that my friend can get help helping me with the installation other than the published installation docs, which did not work for us?
I have looked for both free and commercial alternatives to MM, but, frankly, I don’t think that there is anything that comes close to what we have. One of my lists started out on LISTSERV many decades ago. I moved it to Appls’s list server and then I moved it to MM after Apple starting with OS/X. Apparently LISTSERV is still around and is being updated, but I’m not keen on going back there, and it’s very expensive too boot.
Any help with this is greatly appreciated!
Yours,
Allan Hansen
Reply-To set to mailman-users@mailman3.org.
Allan Hansen writes:
I need to upgrade from Mailman 2.1 - my hardware needs upgrading (badly) and the address mangling is having my subscribers rip their hair out.
That's not going to go away. We have ARC support in Mailman 3, but (a) like most envelope manipulation, that should be done in boundary MTAs, not in Mailman, and (b) ARC implementation is not universal. *Very likely* some of your subscribers are going to lose mail if you depend on ARC, rather than munge from.
I need to get this done before they start on my already thinning hair!
I sympathize. I tell the little kids I meet that my hair grows out of the bottom of my face, not the top (it's very alliterative in Japanese[1], the kids frequently don't get it but the accompanying adults usually laugh).
I’m ready and eager to move on to MM3 on a Linux box.
The obvious "turn-key" installation is to use the Docker containers, which Abhilash keeps fairly up-to-date. But see comment below about universal working solutions.
Which distro do you have? Are you using the distro's packages of Mailman 3 (not yet a good idea, unfortunately), or installing from source?
I have looked into it a few times now and I keep running into the same blocks. I don't see much moving either. I was hoping someone (Mailman developing community) would come up with a better working solution.
It's email. There are no universal working solutions.
[Some third party wrote:] My concern is that the Mailman3 is not ready. There are too many dead ends and undocumented stuff.
Who is this guy and has he consulted us? I'd like to do an archive search if he's done so to see what the issues are.
For Mailman2 I have a working integration with iRedMail, that does not seem to work with 3.
What's iRedMail? How does it fit into the community your lists serve?
So, is MM3 ready for the big screen?
Works for us, for values of us including python.org.
If so, is there some way/how/where/when that my friend can get help helping me with the installation other than the published installation docs, which did not work for us?
mailman-users@mailman3.org is the Mailman 3 version of this list. If your friend is the type to get his hands dirty with code, and has the time for development activity, mailman-developers@python.org would also be useful.
You might be better off getting bids from consultants. There's a page listing them on wiki.list.org.
I have looked for both free and commercial alternatives to MM,
There are sites that support MM commercially. I think the prices are reasonable, of course YMMV on that. Again, there's a page for those services on wiki.list.org.
Footnotes: [1] "hage dakara hige o" -- the vowels are pronounced as Spanish or Italian, the consonants as in English.
Am 25.11.19 um 07:15 schrieb Stephen J. Turnbull:
[...]
The obvious "turn-key" installation is to use the Docker containers, which Abhilash keeps fairly up-to-date. But see comment below about universal working solutions.
[...]
Great suggestion. Is it easy to integrate it with the system's MTA or does it come with its own MTA?
The obvious big showstopper is that there is no supported upgrade path from Mailman 2.* yet, according to http://www.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html#how-can-i-upgr... and so you certainly don't want to try to upgrade production instances of mailman without it.
Cheers,
Johannes
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 05:04, Johannes Rohr <jorohr@gmail.com> wrote:
The obvious big showstopper is that there is no supported upgrade path from Mailman 2.* yet, according to
http://www.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html#how-can-i-upgr... and so you certainly don't want to try to upgrade production instances of mailman without it.
Is there a timeline for that? Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is EOL in about 40 days. It would have been nice to have a supported upgrade path six months ago. Can we count on one... say... in the next month? I'm not going to be able to do a production upgrade between now and the start of the holidays change freeze anyway, but it would be nice if we could plan on something for January.
On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
Is there a timeline for that? Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is EOL in about 40 days.
I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2. HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2 throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2. So, for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data for Debian 9).
Stop being scared by the Python team's misleading messaging.
-Jim P.
Am Mo., 25. Nov. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users < mailman-users@python.org>:
On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
Is there a timeline for that? Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is EOL in about 40 days.
I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2. HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2 throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2. So, for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data for Debian 9).
Python2 is being removed from Debian's next release, Bullseye, though. This already has caused turmoil for the Calibre package and I suppose that they will have to remove mailman 2 also so that it is not going to be in the bullseye release.
Stop being scared by the Python team's misleading messaging.
-Jim P.
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jorohr%40gmail.com
On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 16:59 +0100, Johannes Rohr wrote:
Am Mo., 25. Nov. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users <mailman-users@python.org>:
On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
Is there a timeline for that? Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is EOL in about 40 days.
I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2. HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2 throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2. So, for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data for Debian 9).
Python2 is being removed from Debian's next release, Bullseye, though. This already has caused turmoil for the Calibre package and I suppose that they will have to remove mailman 2 also so that it is not going to be in the bullseye release.
Correct, so LTS End-date for Buster (which will be sometime in 2024?) will be the last of Python2 for Debian.
If you are migrating to Bullseye, then it makes sense to plan for an application (e.g. Mailman) migration too. BUT if you are not using bleeding edge OSes, you don't need to heed the Python fear mongering.
-Jim P.
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On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 11:06 -0500, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 16:59 +0100, Johannes Rohr wrote:
Am Mo., 25. Nov. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users <mailman-users@python.org>:
On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
Is there a timeline for that? Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is EOL in about 40 days.
I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2. HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2 throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2. So, for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data for Debian 9).
Python2 is being removed from Debian's next release, Bullseye, though. This already has caused turmoil for the Calibre package and I suppose that they will have to remove mailman 2 also so that it is not going to be in the bullseye release.
Correct, so LTS End-date for Buster (which will be sometime in 2024?) will be the last of Python2 for Debian.
If you are migrating to Bullseye, then it makes sense to plan for an application (e.g. Mailman) migration too. BUT if you are not using bleeding edge OSes, you don't need to heed the Python fear mongering.
Since I'm working on PPAs some today, an additional bullet-point to the above is that Ubuntu Bionic (which includes Python 2.7) has an EOL of April 2028.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
Sure, it would be great if everyone migrated to MM3 (and MM3 fit inside the requirements of everyone using it..) ASAP, but just like with the Linux Kernel there is no magic solution to have everyone on Kernel 5.x this week... so guess what, kernel 3x still gets security patches from distributors.
- -Jim P.
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At Mon, 25 Nov 2019 13:47:16 -0500 Jim Popovitch <jimpop@domainmail.org> wrote:
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On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 11:06 -0500, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 16:59 +0100, Johannes Rohr wrote:
Am Mo., 25. Nov. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users <mailman-users@python.org>:
On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
Is there a timeline for that? Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is EOL in about 40 days.
I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2. HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2 throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2. So, for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data for Debian 9).
Python2 is being removed from Debian's next release, Bullseye, though. This already has caused turmoil for the Calibre package and I suppose that they will have to remove mailman 2 also so that it is not going to be in the bullseye release.
Correct, so LTS End-date for Buster (which will be sometime in 2024?) will be the last of Python2 for Debian.
If you are migrating to Bullseye, then it makes sense to plan for an application (e.g. Mailman) migration too. BUT if you are not using bleeding edge OSes, you don't need to heed the Python fear mongering.
Since I'm working on PPAs some today, an additional bullet-point to the above is that Ubuntu Bionic (which includes Python 2.7) has an EOL of April 2028.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
Sure, it would be great if everyone migrated to MM3 (and MM3 fit inside the requirements of everyone using it..) ASAP, but just like with the Linux Kernel there is no magic solution to have everyone on Kernel 5.x this week... so guess what, kernel 3x still gets security patches from distributors.
And RedHat is still supporting Kernel 2x for RHEL 6...
- -Jim P.
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On 11/25/19 7:17 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 05:04, Johannes Rohr <jorohr@gmail.com> wrote:
The obvious big showstopper is that there is no supported upgrade path from Mailman 2.* yet, according to
http://www.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html#how-can-i-upgr... and so you certainly don't want to try to upgrade production instances of mailman without it.
Is there a timeline for that?
Actually, that doc is out of date. The 'mailman import21' command for importing a list from a Mailman 2.1 config.pck currently works quite well. We've used it to migrate several lists on python.org and it works well (and bugs when found get fixed).
The biggest issue is anomalies in the archive .mbox files that affect the hyperkitty_import process.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Hi all,
Thank you for your responses, Stephen. Much appreciated. I have forwarded them to my friend. I don’t know if he is on this list, but I have recommended that he be, so we can get over whatever hump is getting in the way.
I used the instructions on the Mailman 3 site on my own attempt.
The fact that the mangling will continue is a disappointment. I’m inclined to tell all my AOL and Yahoo users and others in the same boat to find another email service. The problem is that my MacOS users are getting tripped up by the mangling, as it is hidden by the mail clients. I have instructed them to remove previous recipients regularly from the list of such, if they contain the ‘via list’ string. But they don’t read my emails, and we see many embarrassing email ssent to the lists that are meant for one-on-one communication.
What is the best, easiest, guaranteed-to-work way to get this Mailman 3 up and running (OS, add-ons, options, etc.). When I tried myself, I saw a lot of options that I really did not really care to have because I did not know the consequences of each. I’m an application programmer, not a systems programmer.
Yours,
Allan Hansen allan_hansen@icloud.com
On Nov 24, 2019, at 22:15 , Stephen J. Turnbull <turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
I’m ready and eager to move on to MM3 on a Linux box.
The obvious "turn-key" installation is to use the Docker containers, which Abhilash keeps fairly up-to-date. But see comment below about universal working solutions.
Which distro do you have? Are you using the distro's packages of Mailman 3 (not yet a good idea, unfortunately), or installing from source?
I have looked into it a few times now and I keep running into the same blocks. I don't see much moving either. I was hoping someone (Mailman developing community) would come up with a better working solution.
It's email. There are no universal working solutions.
[Some third party wrote:] My concern is that the Mailman3 is not ready. There are too many dead ends and undocumented stuff.
Who is this guy and has he consulted us? I'd like to do an archive search if he's done so to see what the issues are.
For Mailman2 I have a working integration with iRedMail, that does not seem to work with 3.
What's iRedMail? How does it fit into the community your lists serve?
participants (7)
-
Allan Hansen -
Jim Popovitch -
Johannes Rohr -
Mark Sapiro -
Matthew Pounsett -
Robert Heller -
Stephen J. Turnbull