On 10/22/2013 09:28 AM, Chris Barker wrote:

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:07 AM, Pauli Virtanen wrote:

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22.10.2013 06:29, Chris Barker kirjoitti:

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If you go to numpy.org, and try to figure out how to install numpy, you are most likely to end up here:

http://www.scipy.org/install.html

where there is no mention of the binaries built by the numpy project itself, either Windows or Mac. The links are there: http://www.scipy.org/install.html#custom Boy! that's subtle -- I literally looked at least 3-4 times and didn't notice.

It seems a bit odd that they are under "custom", and kind of as a side note:

"projects’ sites may also offer official binary packages (e.g. numpy, scipy library)"

and "may" -- this is the official site, and we don't _know_ if binaries are provided?

Anyway, a lot of effort goes into those, it'd be nice for it to be more prominent.

-Chris

That page is generated from the rst file https://github.com/scipy/scipy.org/blob/master/www/install.rst. I'm sure a Pull requests against that repository would be welcome. You can even do it with an online editor, https://github.com/scipy/scipy.org/edit/master/www/install.rst! - Jonathan Helmus

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Ralf Gommers wrote:

You can argue with the exact wording,

I won't argue, I'll suggest an alternative in a pull request...

but the layout of that page is on purpose. scipy.org is split into two parts: (a) a SciPy Stack part, and (b) a numpy & scipy library part. You're looking at the stack part, and the preferred method to install that stack is a Python distribution.

I'm not sure who decided that that's the "preferred" way, but If we take that as a given, maybe that page is fine. However:

If you look at the library part, the binary installers are at the top of the page: http://www.scipy.org/scipylib/download.html

But finding that page is not obvious. Simple usability: I know what the heck I'm looking at -- I've been using numpy, and numeric before it for something like 15 years. But I just went to grab a new binary, and had a heck of a time finding it -- I'm pretty sure I ended up remembering that the downloads are on sourceforge and looking there. And I've been teaching lately, and my students are having trouble finding them, too. If you google "numpy" you get the numpy.org page as the first hit If you go to numpy.org, there is a "geting numpy" link, that takes you to: http://www.scipy.org/install.html There is also a "Installing NumPy and SciPy" link that takes you to that same page. There is a link to the sourceforge page further won, but no indication of why you would want to go there. So I still have no idea how I would find: http://www.scipy.org/scipylib/download.html So I submit that we could fix this up a bit.... (off to do a pull request) -Chris

Cheers, Ralf

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-Chris

--

Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer

Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception

Chris.Barker@noaa.gov _______________________________________________ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

_______________________________________________ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

-- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 11:14 PM, Chris Barker wrote:

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Chris Barker wrote:

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(off to do a pull request)

Done.

https://github.com/scipy/scipy.org/pull/30

Thanks Chris!

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Chris Barker wrote:

By the way:

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Chris Barker wrote:

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If you google "numpy" you get the numpy.org page as the first hit

If you go to numpy.org, there is a "geting numpy" link, that takes you to:

http://www.scipy.org/install.html

The www.numpy.org page could perhaps use some updating, but I can't find that one on gitHub.

https://github.com/numpy/numpy.org Agreed that numpy.org is not in great shape. Volunteers welcome I'd say. Ralf

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 10:44 PM, Chris Barker wrote:

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Ralf Gommers wrote:

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You can argue with the exact wording,

I won't argue, I'll suggest an alternative in a pull request...

...

but the layout of that page is on purpose. scipy.org is split into two parts: (a) a SciPy Stack part, and (b) a numpy & scipy library part. You're looking at the stack part, and the preferred method to install that stack is a Python distribution.

I'm not sure who decided that that's the "preferred" way

https://github.com/scipy/scipy.org/pull/3 I'm sure the there mentioned scipy-user and numfocus mailing list discussions from a year ago can be found as well with a bit of searching. Cheers, Ralf , but If we

take that as a given, maybe that page is fine. However:

...

If you look at the library part, the binary installers are at the top of the page: http://www.scipy.org/scipylib/download.html

But finding that page is not obvious. Simple usability:

I know what the heck I'm looking at -- I've been using numpy, and numeric before it for something like 15 years. But I just went to grab a new binary, and had a heck of a time finding it -- I'm pretty sure I ended up remembering that the downloads are on sourceforge and looking there. And I've been teaching lately, and my students are having trouble finding them, too.

If you google "numpy" you get the numpy.org page as the first hit

If you go to numpy.org, there is a "geting numpy" link, that takes you to:

http://www.scipy.org/install.html

There is also a "Installing NumPy and SciPy" link that takes you to that same page.

There is a link to the sourceforge page further won, but no indication of why you would want to go there.

So I still have no idea how I would find:

http://www.scipy.org/scipylib/download.html

So I submit that we could fix this up a bit....

(off to do a pull request)

-Chris

...

Cheers, Ralf

...

-Chris

--

Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer

Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception

Chris.Barker@noaa.gov _______________________________________________ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

_______________________________________________ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

--

Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer

Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception

Chris.Barker@noaa.gov _______________________________________________ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

Ralf Gommers wrote:

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...

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but the layout of that page is on purpose. scipy.org is split into two parts: (a) a SciPy Stack part, and (b) a numpy & scipy library part. You're looking at the stack part, and the preferred method to install that stack is a Python distribution.

OK, I'm not sure that's a great idea, but if we take that as a given: That page could use some clarification about what the heck the "stack" is, and what its relationship to the scipy and numpy packages is. And I still think it wouldn't hurt to more obviously point people to how to get either numpy or scipy themselves. So maybe my section about the "official" binaries, but lower on the page. I don't like "custom" as a title, as that makes it sound like advanced numpy-fu, not where a newbie looking for just numpy is going to look. But it sounds like the real problem is with the surrounding pages--that's the page you find when you try to figure out how to get numpy--if that page is about the stack, it should not be linked to directly from the numpy.org page without explanation. We do have a branding problem: "scipy" is a package, a "stack" and a ecosystem/community. It should be clear which one is being referred to when. -Chris

Hi, On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:16 AM, jim vickroy wrote:

On 10/23/2013 8:51 AM, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal wrote:

Ralf Gommers wrote:

but the layout of that page is on purpose. scipy.org is split into two parts: (a) a SciPy Stack part, and (b) a numpy & scipy library part. You're looking at the stack part, and the preferred method to install that stack is a Python distribution.

OK, I'm not sure that's a great idea, but if we take that as a given:

That page could use some clarification about what the heck the "stack" is, and what its relationship to the scipy and numpy packages is.

And I still think it wouldn't hurt to more obviously point people to how to get either numpy or scipy themselves.

So maybe my section about the "official" binaries, but lower on the page. I don't like "custom" as a title, as that makes it sound like advanced numpy-fu, not where a newbie looking for just numpy is going to look.

But it sounds like the real problem is with the surrounding pages--that's the page you find when you try to figure out how to get numpy--if that page is about the stack, it should not be linked to directly from the numpy.org page without explanation.

We do have a branding problem: "scipy" is a package, a "stack" and a ecosystem/community. It should be clear which one is being referred to when.

-Chris _______________________________________________ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion

Chris, thanks for taking this on! You very clearly state all of the confusion I have had with Numpy and Scipy distributions and branding. I also agree that relying on a Python distribution to provide Scipy and Numpy is not a good idea. --jv

I know what you mean. I think there are two groups of users out there: 1) Want software, want it now, with minimum fuss; no beef with installer being primarily based at a single company 2) Like to know how everything got onto my computer, strong preference for community-supported distributions I guess that there's a fairly large group 2 in the Python community. For me, that was a powerful reason to switch from MATLAB. Some of this group is just starting, they own Macs or have Windows machines, and they need binary installers. I don't think there's any practical way of shifting people between groups, and trying to do so will likely cause heated arguments. There's no need to prefer one group over the other - we just need to make sure that both groups have instructions and binaries they can recognize as being for their case. As in: (Group 1): The easiest way to get .... (Group 2): You can also install the stack from community-supported binaries, this is more complicated, but possible by ... Cheers, Matthew

Hi, On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Pauli Virtanen wrote:

23.10.2013 20:10, Matthew Brett kirjoitti: [clip]

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There's no need to prefer one group over the other - we just need to make sure that both groups have instructions and binaries they can recognize as being for their case. As in:

(Group 1): The easiest way to get .... (Group 2): You can also install the stack from community-supported binaries, this is more complicated, but possible by ...

This is pretty much what scipy.org/install.html page currently says. What can be improved is adding more noticeable links to the binaries.

Yes, sure. Obviously it's a subtle matter of emphasis, and also obviously, that current situation has some people confused.

I'm convinced that relying on a Python distribution on Windows and OSX is a good idea, and needs to be emphasized over needs of advanced users, who should have enough patience to read the bottom of the page.

I am arguing that whether it's a good idea or not, according to us, is not going affect the guys and gals in Group 2, and that, unless we want to lose or discourage those people, we'll always need to support (and give mind- and page-space to) community-built binary installers. Cheers, Matthew

23.10.2013 22:50, Chris Barker kirjoitti: [clip]

This makes me think: apparently there is an offical "scipy stack" -- and I even found it with a quick google:

http://www.scipy.org/stackspec.html

If you click "More information..." on the front page, or "About Scipy" in the sidebar, it takes you to an explanation that says that the scipy exists and what it is. A newcomer may possibly read that. -- Pauli Virtanen

On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Pauli Virtanen wrote:

23.10.2013 23:24, Pauli Virtanen kirjoitti:

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23.10.2013 22:50, Chris Barker kirjoitti: [clip]

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This makes me think: apparently there is an offical "scipy stack" -- and I even found it with a quick google:

http://www.scipy.org/stackspec.html

If you click "More information..." on the front page, or "About Scipy" in the sidebar, it takes you to an explanation that says that the scipy exists and what it is. A newcomer may possibly read that.

The reason why it's so obscure is probably that the discussion seems to have mostly been on the Numfocus mailing list, and not here, and I don't remember it being announced at any point.

Here are (some of?) the relevant threads: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.scientific.user/32928/focus=32939 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.scientific.user/33270/focus=33313 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/numfocus/scipy$20stack/numfocus/M... Ralf

My first stop is always pypi to find the link to binaries. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/scipy however the direct download link points to 0.11 Josef

On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Ralf Gommers wrote:

I'd be tempted to replace that unreadable link with http://sourceforge.net/projects/scipy/files/scipy/ and not care about pip/easy_install scanning that page. Binary installers don't work anyway and source bundles are on pypi already, so download_url is mainly for human consumption.

until we have binary wheels, then that sounds like a fine idea. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov

23.10.2013 21:06, Pauli Virtanen kirjoitti:

23.10.2013 17:51, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal kirjoitti: [clip]

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But it sounds like the real problem is with the surrounding pages--that's the page you find when you try to figure out how to get numpy--if that page is about the stack, it should not be linked to directly from the numpy.org page without explanation.

We do have a branding problem: "scipy" is a package, a "stack" and a ecosystem/community. It should be clear which one is being referred to when.

Yep, the scipy.org website has a navigation structure problem, in that the "scipy library" and "scipy stack and community" parts are not separated clearly enough.

This may help: https://github.com/scipy/scipy.org/pull/31