Re: [SciPy-dev] Long live to numpy (and its list as well)
Francesc Altet on scipy-dev:
Now that numpy is dead and we all want a long life to numpy, what about moving discussions in this list into the venerable:
"numpy-discussion <numpy-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net>"
We're one community (or want to be). Could we just have one mailing list per type of discussion (dev and user)? All the cross-posting and cross-monitoring is tedious. I don't care whether we keep scipy-* or numpy-* lists, but is there a functional reason to have four lists? Consider that soon we may have *-doc, *-newbie, *-announce, and others as well, if this takes off like we all hope. If the developers want separate lists because some are only working on one of the two packages, I can see that argument (in the future if not now). I don't see a need for two user lists, unless perhaps sorted by high and low traffic. I propose we either drop the numpy-* lists (if subscribers there agree), or leave them for ongoing discussion of the legacy packages, and discourage discussion of the new numpy/scipy there. Ok, flame me. --jh--
Joe Harrington wrote:
Francesc Altet on scipy-dev:
Now that numpy is dead and we all want a long life to numpy, what about moving discussions in this list into the venerable:
"numpy-discussion <numpy-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net>"
We're one community (or want to be). Could we just have one mailing list per type of discussion (dev and user)? All the cross-posting and cross-monitoring is tedious. I don't care whether we keep scipy-* or numpy-* lists, but is there a functional reason to have four lists? Consider that soon we may have *-doc, *-newbie, *-announce, and others as well, if this takes off like we all hope. If the developers want separate lists because some are only working on one of the two packages, I can see that argument (in the future if not now). I don't see a need for two user lists, unless perhaps sorted by high and low traffic.
I propose we either drop the numpy-* lists (if subscribers there agree), or leave them for ongoing discussion of the legacy packages, and discourage discussion of the new numpy/scipy there.
Ok, flame me.
Uh, no. I'm actually with you on this one: I just don't think we are a large enough group to warrant the existence of separate numpy- and scipy- lists, especially when the overlap in topics is so high. Every scipy user is, by necessity, a numpy user as well. I think that, IF in the future: 1. the traffic on the scipy- lists becomes enormous, AND 2. a significant portion of that traffic is for users of numpy as a pure array library with no scientific concerns (if it really becomes a popular 'data exchange' system for Python-and-C libraries), THEN we can consider resuscitating the numpy lists. For now, I vote on leaving them dormant, and moving all numeric(abandoned), numarray(maintenance-transition) and numpy/scipy (new development) discussion to the scipy-* lists. I don't think the occasional post about Numeric or numarray is a major concern (at least it doesn't bother me). It is an issue also of friendliness to newbies: I'd like to tell newcomers "for information and discussion, just join scipy-user and matplotlib-user, and you should be set on all numerics and plotting in python". Telling them to subscribe to, or monitor via gmane, 8 different lists is annoying. Cheers, f
Fernando Perez wrote:
Joe Harrington wrote:
Francesc Altet on scipy-dev:
Now that numpy is dead and we all want a long life to numpy, what about moving discussions in this list into the venerable:
"numpy-discussion <numpy-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net>"
We're one community (or want to be). Could we just have one mailing list per type of discussion (dev and user)? All the cross-posting and cross-monitoring is tedious. I don't care whether we keep scipy-* or numpy-* lists, but is there a functional reason to have four lists? Consider that soon we may have *-doc, *-newbie, *-announce, and others as well, if this takes off like we all hope. If the developers want separate lists because some are only working on one of the two packages, I can see that argument (in the future if not now). I don't see a need for two user lists, unless perhaps sorted by high and low traffic.
I propose we either drop the numpy-* lists (if subscribers there agree), or leave them for ongoing discussion of the legacy packages, and discourage discussion of the new numpy/scipy there.
Ok, flame me.
Uh, no. I'm actually with you on this one: I just don't think we are a large enough group to warrant the existence of separate numpy- and scipy- lists, especially when the overlap in topics is so high. Every scipy user is, by necessity, a numpy user as well.
I think that, IF in the future:
1. the traffic on the scipy- lists becomes enormous, AND
2. a significant portion of that traffic is for users of numpy as a pure array library with no scientific concerns (if it really becomes a popular 'data exchange' system for Python-and-C libraries),
THEN we can consider resuscitating the numpy lists.
For now, I vote on leaving them dormant, and moving all numeric(abandoned), numarray(maintenance-transition) and numpy/scipy (new development) discussion to the scipy-* lists. I don't think the occasional post about Numeric or numarray is a major concern (at least it doesn't bother me).
It is an issue also of friendliness to newbies: I'd like to tell newcomers "for information and discussion, just join scipy-user and matplotlib-user, and you should be set on all numerics and plotting in python". Telling them to subscribe to, or monitor via gmane, 8 different lists is annoying.
Cheers,
f
It seems to me that NumPy is the better way to go, the archives and downloads are more readily available there, but it's up to Todd Miller and the folk who have been maintaining NumPy. NumPy has been around for a while, probably longer than SciPy. Colin W.
Colin J. Williams wrote:
It seems to me that NumPy is the better way to go, the archives and downloads are more readily available there, but it's up to Todd Miller and the folk who have been maintaining NumPy.
NumPy has been around for a while, probably longer than SciPy.
I, for one, am only subscribed to the NumPy list, and have been for years. I don't know how much non-NumPy stuff there is on the SciPy list, but while I do use NumPy for Scientific stuff, I don't use the rest of SciPy (because, frankly, it's always been a pain in the @#! to install) and I don't need another high-traffic list. +1 numpy-discussion -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov
A Dijous 05 Gener 2006 20:59, Christopher Barker va escriure:
Colin J. Williams wrote:
It seems to me that NumPy is the better way to go, the archives and downloads are more readily available there, but it's up to Todd Miller and the folk who have been maintaining NumPy.
NumPy has been around for a while, probably longer than SciPy.
I, for one, am only subscribed to the NumPy list, and have been for years. I don't know how much non-NumPy stuff there is on the SciPy list, but while I do use NumPy for Scientific stuff, I don't use the rest of SciPy (because, frankly, it's always been a pain in the @#! to install) and I don't need another high-traffic list.
Yeah, I was thinking in people like you. In fact, I'm myself in the same case than you: I'm very interested in a basic array module (Numeric/numarray/numpy) and not so much in more powerful (but complex) packages like scipy. And I think there can be a lot of people out there that can be in the same position. Accordingly, my vote is also: +1 numpy-discussion --
0,0< Francesc Altet http://www.carabos.com/ V V Cárabos Coop. V. Enjoy Data "-"
Perhaps all discussions of the core stuff could go to numpy-discussion and the applications and libraries go to scipy-discussion. That segregation often doesn't work and you still get all the cross-posting anyway. But I would think that it would be important to have the core element highlighted in the name since that user base will be bigger than the scipy one by necessity. Perry On Jan 5, 2006, at 5:03 PM, Francesc Altet wrote:
A Dijous 05 Gener 2006 20:59, Christopher Barker va escriure:
Colin J. Williams wrote:
It seems to me that NumPy is the better way to go, the archives and downloads are more readily available there, but it's up to Todd Miller and the folk who have been maintaining NumPy.
NumPy has been around for a while, probably longer than SciPy.
I, for one, am only subscribed to the NumPy list, and have been for years. I don't know how much non-NumPy stuff there is on the SciPy list, but while I do use NumPy for Scientific stuff, I don't use the rest of SciPy (because, frankly, it's always been a pain in the @#! to install) and I don't need another high-traffic list.
Yeah, I was thinking in people like you. In fact, I'm myself in the same case than you: I'm very interested in a basic array module (Numeric/numarray/numpy) and not so much in more powerful (but complex) packages like scipy. And I think there can be a lot of people out there that can be in the same position.
Accordingly, my vote is also:
+1 numpy-discussion
On Friday 06 January 2006 09:34, Perry Greenfield wrote:
Perhaps all discussions of the core stuff could go to numpy-discussion and the applications and libraries go to scipy-discussion. That segregation often doesn't work and you still get all the cross-posting anyway. But I would think that it would be important to have the core element highlighted in the name since that user base will be bigger than the scipy one by necessity.
Perry
Reading this I would second the idea of keeping two lists: if and only if the total number of people exceeds a certain limit (which I think was the original statement that that is not the case -- is there some statistics of how many (active) people are subscribed to each list) Also I would like to point out that the way Perry wrote his posting the "scipy"(!) list should soon be the larger one, because "applications and libraries" is the reason we all do this in the first place and the underlying "numpy" would "just be working" - at least as most people will concern/presume. - Sebastian Haase
On Jan 5, 2006, at 5:03 PM, Francesc Altet wrote:
A Dijous 05 Gener 2006 20:59, Christopher Barker va escriure:
Colin J. Williams wrote:
It seems to me that NumPy is the better way to go, the archives and downloads are more readily available there, but it's up to Todd Miller and the folk who have been maintaining NumPy.
NumPy has been around for a while, probably longer than SciPy.
I, for one, am only subscribed to the NumPy list, and have been for years. I don't know how much non-NumPy stuff there is on the SciPy list, but while I do use NumPy for Scientific stuff, I don't use the rest of SciPy (because, frankly, it's always been a pain in the @#! to install) and I don't need another high-traffic list.
Yeah, I was thinking in people like you. In fact, I'm myself in the same case than you: I'm very interested in a basic array module (Numeric/numarray/numpy) and not so much in more powerful (but complex) packages like scipy. And I think there can be a lot of people out there that can be in the same position.
Accordingly, my vote is also:
+1 numpy-discussion
On 05.01.2006, at 23:03, Francesc Altet wrote:
Accordingly, my vote is also:
+1 numpy-discussion
+1 from me as well. Same reason. Konrad. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- Konrad Hinsen Laboratoire Leon Brillouin (CEA-CNRS), CEA Saclay, 91191 Gif-sur-Yvette Cedex, France Tel.: +33-1 69 08 79 25 Fax: +33-1 69 08 82 61 E-Mail: khinsen@cea.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------
A Dijous 12 Gener 2006 11:52, konrad.hinsen@laposte.net va escriure:
On 05.01.2006, at 23:03, Francesc Altet wrote:
Accordingly, my vote is also:
+1 numpy-discussion
+1 from me as well. Same reason.
The outcome of the discussion is that it has been created a new list called numpy-user@lists.sf.net for discussing the new NumPy package. Apparently, the numpy-discussion will still be the place for discussing Numeric/numarray issues. Cheers, --
0,0< Francesc Altet http://www.carabos.com/ V V Cárabos Coop. V. Enjoy Data "-"
On Thursday 12 January 2006 03:21, Francesc Altet wrote:
A Dijous 12 Gener 2006 11:52, konrad.hinsen@laposte.net va escriure:
On 05.01.2006, at 23:03, Francesc Altet wrote:
Accordingly, my vote is also:
+1 numpy-discussion
+1 from me as well. Same reason.
The outcome of the discussion is that it has been created a new list called numpy-user@lists.sf.net for discussing the new NumPy package. Apparently, the numpy-discussion will still be the place for discussing Numeric/numarray issues.
I'm sorry to disagree, I really think there are to many lists now ! The start of this "lists discussion" was about _reducing_ the total number of scipy/numpy lists, now we have two more ! Obviously there are going to be lots of posts regarding "transition from Numeric/numarray to NumPy" -- are they all supposed to cross post !? My vote (and that's how I read Konrad's - correct my if I'm wrong) is to continue using numpy-discussion and NOT have another lists (numpy-user) . My two cents, Sebastian Haase
On 12.01.2006, at 18:13, Sebastian Haase wrote:
Obviously there are going to be lots of posts regarding "transition from Numeric/numarray to NumPy" -- are they all supposed to cross post !?
My vote (and that's how I read Konrad's - correct my if I'm wrong) is to continue using numpy-discussion and NOT have another lists (numpy- user) .
I agree. It makes sense to have a separate developer list for those who work *on* NumPy, but please let's stick to a single list for users of all Python array packages. Separate lists will encourage a split in the community, and create lots of crosspostings. Konrad. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- Konrad Hinsen Laboratoire Leon Brillouin (CEA-CNRS), CEA Saclay, 91191 Gif-sur-Yvette Cedex, France Tel.: +33-1 69 08 79 25 Fax: +33-1 69 08 82 61 E-Mail: khinsen@cea.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------
konrad.hinsen@laposte.net wrote:
On 12.01.2006, at 18:13, Sebastian Haase wrote:
Obviously there are going to be lots of posts regarding "transition from Numeric/numarray to NumPy" -- are they all supposed to cross post !?
My vote (and that's how I read Konrad's - correct my if I'm wrong) is to continue using numpy-discussion and NOT have another lists (numpy- user) .
I agree. It makes sense to have a separate developer list for those who work *on* NumPy, but please let's stick to a single list for users of all Python array packages. Separate lists will encourage a split in the community, and create lots of crosspostings.
I agree as well. In the last days, there have been several posts by authors who clearly missed ongoing discussions following from an original cross-post because further discussion took place exclusively on an unsubscribed list. Can we shut down numpy-user? It's only been around a couple weeks, and I bet everyone subscribed there is also on numpy-discussion. Cheers! Andrew
On Jan 12, 2006, at 12:55 , Andrew Straw wrote:
konrad.hinsen@laposte.net wrote:
On 12.01.2006, at 18:13, Sebastian Haase wrote:
Obviously there are going to be lots of posts regarding "transition from Numeric/numarray to NumPy" -- are they all supposed to cross post !?
My vote (and that's how I read Konrad's - correct my if I'm wrong) is to continue using numpy-discussion and NOT have another lists (numpy- user) .
I agree. It makes sense to have a separate developer list for those who work *on* NumPy, but please let's stick to a single list for users of all Python array packages. Separate lists will encourage a split in the community, and create lots of crosspostings.
I agree as well. In the last days, there have been several posts by authors who clearly missed ongoing discussions following from an original cross-post because further discussion took place exclusively on an unsubscribed list. Can we shut down numpy-user? It's only been around a couple weeks, and I bet everyone subscribed there is also on numpy-discussion.
I'd have to agree too. For one thing, the names are too similar: what really is the difference between -discussion and -user? numpy- discussion has a long history: this includes archives on sourceforge.net, gmane.org, and elsewhere, which gives a one-stop shop for searching archives, instead of having to remember to look up (or forgetting to look up) in several lists. It's also better for newcomers to only have one obvious list to post to. At the moment, I'd also say numpy is still closely linked with scipy in terms of developers, so a separate numpy-dev list would be premature. -- |>|\/|< /------------------------------------------------------------------\ |David M. Cooke http://arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca/dmc/ |cookedm@physics.mcmaster.ca
konrad.hinsen@laposte.net wrote:
Separate lists will encourage a split in the community, and create lots of crosspostings.
This convinced me... I closed the numpy-user list (already closed the numpy-devel list). Please make all numpy-related posts to numpy-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net It would help if users would make clear in the subject if they are not posting regarding current NumPy, but that their post is specific to Numarray and/or Numeric. -Travis
Sebastian Haase wrote:
now we have two more !
I think it's only one: numpy-dev got dropped.
Obviously there are going to be lots of posts regarding "transition from Numeric/numarray to NumPy" -- are they all supposed to cross post !?
No, they should post to numpy-user. If it's about numpy, post there. Period. If it's about Numeric or numarray, and NOT numpy, then post to the old list. As I imagine there are a lot of folks that are not interested in the latest developments, and are "just using" one of the older packages, then the old list has a valuable place. Personally, I filter them both to the same place, so it makes little difference to me, though all that cross-posting gets annoying. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov
Christopher Barker wrote:
Sebastian Haase wrote:
now we have two more !
I think it's only one: numpy-dev got dropped.
Obviously there are going to be lots of posts regarding "transition from Numeric/numarray to NumPy" -- are they all supposed to cross post !?
No, they should post to numpy-user. If it's about numpy, post there. Period. If it's about Numeric or numarray, and NOT numpy, then post to the old list. As I imagine there are a lot of folks that are not interested in the latest developments, and are "just using" one of the older packages, then the old list has a valuable place.
I don't really have an opinion on this matter, and have run out of mental bandwith to follow it. But I'd like to ask that, when the dust settles, could the powers-that-be please put up a clear notice on the new wiki as to what the lists are, and the purpose of each, with links to the relevant subscription pages? Cheers, f
I am also +1 to keep numpy for the same reasons as Colin and Chris. So far there has been nothing in alpha SciPy versions that offer any advantage over Numarray for what I use or develop. Bruce On 1/5/06, Christopher Barker <Chris.Barker@noaa.gov> wrote:
Colin J. Williams wrote:
It seems to me that NumPy is the better way to go, the archives and downloads are more readily available there, but it's up to Todd Miller and the folk who have been maintaining NumPy.
NumPy has been around for a while, probably longer than SciPy.
I, for one, am only subscribed to the NumPy list, and have been for years. I don't know how much non-NumPy stuff there is on the SciPy list, but while I do use NumPy for Scientific stuff, I don't use the rest of SciPy (because, frankly, it's always been a pain in the @#! to install) and I don't need another high-traffic list.
+1 numpy-discussion
-Chris
-- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer
NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception
Chris.Barker@noaa.gov
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Bruce Southey wrote:
I am also +1 to keep numpy for the same reasons as Colin and Chris. So far there has been nothing in alpha SciPy versions that offer any advantage over Numarray for what I use or develop.
There are two new mailing lists for NumPy numpy-devel@lists.sourceforge.net numpy-user@lists.sourceforge.net These are for developers and users to talk about only NumPy The SciPy lists can be for SciPy itself. Two packages deserve separate lists. -Travis
Travis Oliphant wrote:
There are two new mailing lists for NumPy
numpy-devel@lists.sourceforge.net numpy-user@lists.sourceforge.net
These are for developers and users to talk about only NumPy
You can subscribe to these lists from http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=1369
Andrew Straw wrote:
Travis Oliphant wrote:
There are two new mailing lists for NumPy
numpy-devel@lists.sourceforge.net numpy-user@lists.sourceforge.net
These are for developers and users to talk about only NumPy
You can subscribe to these lists from http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=1369
I send my postings to numpy-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net. Colin W.
Andrew Straw wrote:
Travis Oliphant wrote:
numpy-devel@lists.sourceforge.net numpy-user@lists.sourceforge.net
You can subscribe to these lists from http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=1369
I don't see numpy-devel there. At least it's not obvious. I see: numpy-discussion (which is the list I'm posting too now, and has been around a long time for Numeric, then numarray, and now numpy) and: numpy-user (which does look like a new one) where can I find numpy-devel ? -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov
Christopher Barker wrote:
Andrew Straw wrote:
Travis Oliphant wrote:
numpy-devel@lists.sourceforge.net numpy-user@lists.sourceforge.net
You can subscribe to these lists from http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=1369
I don't see numpy-devel there. At least it's not obvious. I see:
numpy-discussion (which is the list I'm posting too now, and has been around a long time for Numeric, then numarray, and now numpy)
and:
numpy-user (which does look like a new one)
where can I find numpy-devel ?
It seems to be that numpy-devel has been (silently) deleted. I subscribed immediately after it was announced, tried posting a few days later, and got an error message. I can't remember exactly what the error was, but it seemed to be directly from sourceforge indicating problems with the numpy-devel list. So, I assume the list has simply been deleted. Is this so?
Christopher Barker wrote:
Andrew Straw wrote:
Travis Oliphant wrote:
numpy-devel@lists.sourceforge.net numpy-user@lists.sourceforge.net
You can subscribe to these lists from http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=1369
I don't see numpy-devel there. At least it's not obvious. I see:
numpy-discussion (which is the list I'm posting too now, and has been around a long time for Numeric, then numarray, and now numpy)
and:
numpy-user (which does look like a new one)
where can I find numpy-devel ?
Sorry for the noise. I decided one numpy list was enough for now and hid the numpy-devel list. -Travis
Bruce Southey wrote:
I am also +1 to keep numpy for the same reasons as Colin and Chris. So far there has been nothing in alpha SciPy versions that offer any advantage over Numarray for what I use or develop.
Just so it's clear: I was advocating that the numpy-discussion group be the primary place for NumPy-related ( as opposed to other scipy stuff) discussion. I was not advocating for or against the adaptation of the new scipy_base - scipy_core - now-numpy. As it happens, I am very excited by the new numpy, am really looking forward to its rapid adoption. -Chris
On 1/5/06, *Christopher Barker* <Chris.Barker@noaa.gov
+1 numpy-discussion
-- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov
participants (13)
-
Andrew Straw -
Bruce Southey -
Christopher Barker -
Colin J. Williams -
David M. Cooke -
Fernando Perez -
Francesc Altet -
Joe Harrington -
konrad.hinsen＠laposte.net -
Perry Greenfield -
Sebastian Haase -
Travis Oliphant -
Travis Oliphant