Should we import old MM discussions into e.g. Discourse?
I'm trying something new here: moving a reply to a different subject. On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 9:27 AM, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
For a short time period I think it’s fine to try and test the waters, but long term we should pick one tool, whatever that tool is, for this kind of discussion [1] and bless that and get rid of anything else. Whether that’s mailman or discourse or something else.
If you decided that (for example) python-dev would move to Discourse, is there
a) some way to suck the old MM archives into Discourse?
b) allow search engines to index them?
It's not clear that the infinite scroll thing allows for (easy) indexing, though I assume Google and Bing have their collective act together in this regard.
Would the MM->some-kind-of-forum decision be made on a list-by-list basis, or would some lists always remain MM-hosted? I can see where the natives might get very restless if you migrated comp.lang.python/ python-list@python.org to some sort of forum tool. Python-dev or python-ideas would be bad enough, but for c.l.p it would probably be torches and pitchforks time.
I personally think that in this case (unlike hg->git) there is little benefit to importing old discussions. The old discussions *do* have permalinks, in pipermail and various other archives (e.g. activestate). Those links are already being used and we should try very hard not to break such links. That probably means keeping pipermail running forever, in read-only mode. FWIW I also don't think we need to shut down the existing mailing lists. They serve a purpose. But they should not be the only place where we discuss things (that's my definition of "forum" BTW) and probably not the busiest place. I hope we can move all lists on mail.python.org to MM3/HyperKitty with minimal disruption -- again I think it would be fine if the archives weren't imported, even if that means some threads will be split across two archival systems. That's not the end of the world. -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
On Jun 23, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
I'm trying something new here: moving a reply to a different subject.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com <mailto:skip.montanaro@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 9:27 AM, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io <mailto:donald@stufft.io>> wrote: For a short time period I think it’s fine to try and test the waters, but long term we should pick one tool, whatever that tool is, for this kind of discussion [1] and bless that and get rid of anything else. Whether that’s mailman or discourse or something else.
If you decided that (for example) python-dev would move to Discourse, is there
a) some way to suck the old MM archives into Discourse?
b) allow search engines to index them?
It's not clear that the infinite scroll thing allows for (easy) indexing, though I assume Google and Bing have their collective act together in this regard.
Would the MM->some-kind-of-forum decision be made on a list-by-list basis, or would some lists always remain MM-hosted? I can see where the natives might get very restless if you migrated comp.lang.python/python-list@python.org <mailto:python-list@python.org> to some sort of forum tool. Python-dev or python-ideas would be bad enough, but for c.l.p it would probably be torches and pitchforks time.
I personally think that in this case (unlike hg->git) there is little benefit to importing old discussions. The old discussions *do* have permalinks, in pipermail and various other archives (e.g. activestate). Those links are already being used and we should try very hard not to break such links. That probably means keeping pipermail running forever, in read-only mode.
This is two things I think, I totally agree we should not break those existing links and we should keep piper mail running forever in read-only mode. When it comes to importing the old discussions, I think there is benefit to them: * It would provide a seeding of “We noticed you were posting a topic that looks similar to an older one?” * It’d enable interlinking using the discourse mechanisms for those older posts instead of having to find the piper mail url and linking to that. I don’t think these are super huge benefits though, so I’m also perfectly happy to start fresh (particularly if we try and import and it ends up munging up the formatting to the degree the old messages aren’t very useful).
FWIW I also don't think we need to shut down the existing mailing lists. They serve a purpose. But they should not be the only place where we discuss things (that's my definition of "forum" BTW) and probably not the busiest place. I hope we can move all lists on mail.python.org <http://mail.python.org/> to MM3/HyperKitty with minimal disruption -- again I think it would be fine if the archives weren't imported, even if that means some threads will be split across two archival systems. That's not the end of the world.
Does this mean that you you’d want to say (pretending we decide to move python-dev to discourse) keep a python-dev MM list and have them run parallel, disparate discussions?
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido <http://python.org/~guido>) _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
— Donald Stufft
I think a clean break would actually be preferable. I think it would be fine to have the Discourse and MM instance both be active, for slightly different purposes. E.g. python-dev would be more of a news broadcast, with a social convention to discourage responses and have discussions on Discourse instead. On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
On Jun 23, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
I'm trying something new here: moving a reply to a different subject.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 9:27 AM, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
For a short time period I think it’s fine to try and test the waters, but long term we should pick one tool, whatever that tool is, for this kind of discussion [1] and bless that and get rid of anything else. Whether that’s mailman or discourse or something else.
If you decided that (for example) python-dev would move to Discourse, is there
a) some way to suck the old MM archives into Discourse?
b) allow search engines to index them?
It's not clear that the infinite scroll thing allows for (easy) indexing, though I assume Google and Bing have their collective act together in this regard.
Would the MM->some-kind-of-forum decision be made on a list-by-list basis, or would some lists always remain MM-hosted? I can see where the natives might get very restless if you migrated comp.lang.python/ python-list@python.org to some sort of forum tool. Python-dev or python-ideas would be bad enough, but for c.l.p it would probably be torches and pitchforks time.
I personally think that in this case (unlike hg->git) there is little benefit to importing old discussions. The old discussions *do* have permalinks, in pipermail and various other archives (e.g. activestate). Those links are already being used and we should try very hard not to break such links. That probably means keeping pipermail running forever, in read-only mode.
This is two things I think, I totally agree we should not break those existing links and we should keep piper mail running forever in read-only mode. When it comes to importing the old discussions, I think there is benefit to them:
* It would provide a seeding of “We noticed you were posting a topic that looks similar to an older one?” * It’d enable interlinking using the discourse mechanisms for those older posts instead of having to find the piper mail url and linking to that.
I don’t think these are super huge benefits though, so I’m also perfectly happy to start fresh (particularly if we try and import and it ends up munging up the formatting to the degree the old messages aren’t very useful).
FWIW I also don't think we need to shut down the existing mailing lists. They serve a purpose. But they should not be the only place where we discuss things (that's my definition of "forum" BTW) and probably not the busiest place. I hope we can move all lists on mail.python.org to MM3/HyperKitty with minimal disruption -- again I think it would be fine if the archives weren't imported, even if that means some threads will be split across two archival systems. That's not the end of the world.
Does this mean that you you’d want to say (pretending we decide to move python-dev to discourse) keep a python-dev MM list and have them run parallel, disparate discussions?
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
— Donald Stufft
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
On Jun 23, 2016, at 1:29 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
I think a clean break would actually be preferable.
I think it would be fine to have the Discourse and MM instance both be active, for slightly different purposes. E.g. python-dev would be more of a news broadcast, with a social convention to discourage responses and have discussions on Discourse instead.
Fine with me on both counts! Less work on the first count too :) — Donald Stufft
So basically python-dev implicitly becoming python-dev-announce while all actual discussion occurring on Discourse? If that's the case I would be curious to know how the separation would be as to what should go where. I can see things like release details being announced (e.g. "we're cutting 3.6.a2 on such-and-such a date"), but otherwise I would think everything else would involve some form of discussion. And if that's the case then it's more of a python-releases mailing list where anyone can subscribe but only RMs can post (and maybe maintainers of other implementations). And if whatever wins this discussion requires a migration, we can do it in phases based on things directly tied to Python's development (e.g. python-dev and SIGs), then consider expanding it (e.g. python-list if people want to go that far). On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 at 10:29 Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
I think a clean break would actually be preferable.
I think it would be fine to have the Discourse and MM instance both be active, for slightly different purposes. E.g. python-dev would be more of a news broadcast, with a social convention to discourage responses and have discussions on Discourse instead.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
On Jun 23, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
I'm trying something new here: moving a reply to a different subject.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 9:27 AM, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
For a short time period I think it’s fine to try and test the waters, but long term we should pick one tool, whatever that tool is, for this kind of discussion [1] and bless that and get rid of anything else. Whether that’s mailman or discourse or something else.
If you decided that (for example) python-dev would move to Discourse, is there
a) some way to suck the old MM archives into Discourse?
b) allow search engines to index them?
It's not clear that the infinite scroll thing allows for (easy) indexing, though I assume Google and Bing have their collective act together in this regard.
Would the MM->some-kind-of-forum decision be made on a list-by-list basis, or would some lists always remain MM-hosted? I can see where the natives might get very restless if you migrated comp.lang.python/ python-list@python.org to some sort of forum tool. Python-dev or python-ideas would be bad enough, but for c.l.p it would probably be torches and pitchforks time.
I personally think that in this case (unlike hg->git) there is little benefit to importing old discussions. The old discussions *do* have permalinks, in pipermail and various other archives (e.g. activestate). Those links are already being used and we should try very hard not to break such links. That probably means keeping pipermail running forever, in read-only mode.
This is two things I think, I totally agree we should not break those existing links and we should keep piper mail running forever in read-only mode. When it comes to importing the old discussions, I think there is benefit to them:
* It would provide a seeding of “We noticed you were posting a topic that looks similar to an older one?” * It’d enable interlinking using the discourse mechanisms for those older posts instead of having to find the piper mail url and linking to that.
I don’t think these are super huge benefits though, so I’m also perfectly happy to start fresh (particularly if we try and import and it ends up munging up the formatting to the degree the old messages aren’t very useful).
FWIW I also don't think we need to shut down the existing mailing lists. They serve a purpose. But they should not be the only place where we discuss things (that's my definition of "forum" BTW) and probably not the busiest place. I hope we can move all lists on mail.python.org to MM3/HyperKitty with minimal disruption -- again I think it would be fine if the archives weren't imported, even if that means some threads will be split across two archival systems. That's not the end of the world.
Does this mean that you you’d want to say (pretending we decide to move python-dev to discourse) keep a python-dev MM list and have them run parallel, disparate discussions?
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
— Donald Stufft
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
It's too soon to actually do this, but the way I imagine it, it would be very organic. We announce that there's a new forum (e.g. Discourse) and we encourage people to try it out. That's all for phase 1. If we end up liking it we can have a discussion (on Discourse :-) for how to make its use more mandatory, and for what purposes to keep using the list. And those rules/conventions can evolve. PS. Above, 'Discourse' is really just a variable standing in for the actual system we're going to try. But for overload-sig specifically let's move to Discourse, if Donald can set it up. (And yes, I'm intentionally ignoring list etiquette here, to demonstrate the problems we're trying to solve.) --Guido On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
So basically python-dev implicitly becoming python-dev-announce while all actual discussion occurring on Discourse? If that's the case I would be curious to know how the separation would be as to what should go where. I can see things like release details being announced (e.g. "we're cutting 3.6.a2 on such-and-such a date"), but otherwise I would think everything else would involve some form of discussion. And if that's the case then it's more of a python-releases mailing list where anyone can subscribe but only RMs can post (and maybe maintainers of other implementations).
And if whatever wins this discussion requires a migration, we can do it in phases based on things directly tied to Python's development (e.g. python-dev and SIGs), then consider expanding it (e.g. python-list if people want to go that far).
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 at 10:29 Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
I think a clean break would actually be preferable.
I think it would be fine to have the Discourse and MM instance both be active, for slightly different purposes. E.g. python-dev would be more of a news broadcast, with a social convention to discourage responses and have discussions on Discourse instead.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
On Jun 23, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
I'm trying something new here: moving a reply to a different subject.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Skip Montanaro < skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 9:27 AM, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
For a short time period I think it’s fine to try and test the waters, but long term we should pick one tool, whatever that tool is, for this kind of discussion [1] and bless that and get rid of anything else. Whether that’s mailman or discourse or something else.
If you decided that (for example) python-dev would move to Discourse, is there
a) some way to suck the old MM archives into Discourse?
b) allow search engines to index them?
It's not clear that the infinite scroll thing allows for (easy) indexing, though I assume Google and Bing have their collective act together in this regard.
Would the MM->some-kind-of-forum decision be made on a list-by-list basis, or would some lists always remain MM-hosted? I can see where the natives might get very restless if you migrated comp.lang.python/ python-list@python.org to some sort of forum tool. Python-dev or python-ideas would be bad enough, but for c.l.p it would probably be torches and pitchforks time.
I personally think that in this case (unlike hg->git) there is little benefit to importing old discussions. The old discussions *do* have permalinks, in pipermail and various other archives (e.g. activestate). Those links are already being used and we should try very hard not to break such links. That probably means keeping pipermail running forever, in read-only mode.
This is two things I think, I totally agree we should not break those existing links and we should keep piper mail running forever in read-only mode. When it comes to importing the old discussions, I think there is benefit to them:
* It would provide a seeding of “We noticed you were posting a topic that looks similar to an older one?” * It’d enable interlinking using the discourse mechanisms for those older posts instead of having to find the piper mail url and linking to that.
I don’t think these are super huge benefits though, so I’m also perfectly happy to start fresh (particularly if we try and import and it ends up munging up the formatting to the degree the old messages aren’t very useful).
FWIW I also don't think we need to shut down the existing mailing lists. They serve a purpose. But they should not be the only place where we discuss things (that's my definition of "forum" BTW) and probably not the busiest place. I hope we can move all lists on mail.python.org to MM3/HyperKitty with minimal disruption -- again I think it would be fine if the archives weren't imported, even if that means some threads will be split across two archival systems. That's not the end of the world.
Does this mean that you you’d want to say (pretending we decide to move python-dev to discourse) keep a python-dev MM list and have them run parallel, disparate discussions?
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
— Donald Stufft
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
Guido van Rossum writes:
I think it would be fine to have the Discourse and MM instance both be active, for slightly different purposes. E.g. python-dev would be more of a news broadcast, with a social convention to discourage responses and have discussions on Discourse instead.
Mailman Reply-To set to the Discourse mail gateway, maybe. But that would be a pretty strong signal that the Mailman channel is close to a pure announce list. I think it would be cool if the "dlist" feature were used to direct replies to an appropriate Discourse topic. Not sure how that would work technically, though.
On Jun 23, 2016, at 01:22 PM, Donald Stufft wrote:
This is two things I think, I totally agree we should not break those existing links and we should keep piper mail running forever in read-only mode. When it comes to importing the old discussions, I think there is benefit to them:
I definitely don't think we should ever *remove* the old Pipermail archives, but there's still benefit in importing them into Hyperkitty. Pipermail urls are not guaranteed to be stable, and in fact our postmasters have inadvertently broken urls for one or two archives in the past, by accidentally regenerating them. Hyperkitty urls are permanent; they will never change even if the databases are regenerated. MM3 also uses a protocol to "pre-determine" the permalink for a message based on the Message-ID (which is for all practical purposes, unique) and a base archiver url, without interaction of the archiver, which is something Pipermail also can't do. It may be possible to use this protocol to auto-generate redirects from Pipermail to Hyperkitty. Cheers, -Barry
OK, maybe we can start moving *this* list to MM3 and also do the pipermail -> HyperKitty import. On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 7:41 AM, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
On Jun 23, 2016, at 01:22 PM, Donald Stufft wrote:
This is two things I think, I totally agree we should not break those existing links and we should keep piper mail running forever in read-only mode. When it comes to importing the old discussions, I think there is benefit to them:
I definitely don't think we should ever *remove* the old Pipermail archives, but there's still benefit in importing them into Hyperkitty. Pipermail urls are not guaranteed to be stable, and in fact our postmasters have inadvertently broken urls for one or two archives in the past, by accidentally regenerating them.
Hyperkitty urls are permanent; they will never change even if the databases are regenerated. MM3 also uses a protocol to "pre-determine" the permalink for a message based on the Message-ID (which is for all practical purposes, unique) and a base archiver url, without interaction of the archiver, which is something Pipermail also can't do.
It may be possible to use this protocol to auto-generate redirects from Pipermail to Hyperkitty.
Cheers, -Barry _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
On Jun 24, 2016, at 07:56 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
OK, maybe we can start moving *this* list to MM3 and also do the pipermail -> HyperKitty import.
I would like to see that, yes. If we're going to be guinea pigs, less go whole hog :). I'm CC'ing Mark Sapiro to see if he has bandwidth to do that. I think there are still some Postfix issues to iron out, but I'm way behind on my email due to recent travels. -Barry
On 6/24/16 8:13 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Jun 24, 2016, at 07:56 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
OK, maybe we can start moving *this* list to MM3 and also do the pipermail -> HyperKitty import.
I would like to see that, yes. If we're going to be guinea pigs, less go whole hog :).
I'm CC'ing Mark Sapiro to see if he has bandwidth to do that. I think there are still some Postfix issues to iron out, but I'm way behind on my email due to recent travels.
I suggested this to Steve and he didn't want to, but there is a MM3 overload-sig@python.org all ready to go, but the mail goes to the MM2 list as long as there is one, and the MM3 list isn't 'configured' yet. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
This distributed decision making drives me nuts. Just do it please! On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:25 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On Jun 24, 2016, at 07:56 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
OK, maybe we can start moving *this* list to MM3 and also do the
-> HyperKitty import.
I would like to see that, yes. If we're going to be guinea pigs, less go whole hog :).
I'm CC'ing Mark Sapiro to see if he has bandwidth to do that. I think
On 6/24/16 8:13 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: pipermail there
are still some Postfix issues to iron out, but I'm way behind on my email due to recent travels.
I suggested this to Steve and he didn't want to, but there is a MM3 overload-sig@python.org all ready to go, but the mail goes to the MM2 list as long as there is one, and the MM3 list isn't 'configured' yet.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
Guido> This distributed decision making drives me nuts. Makes you think we need a BDFL or something. :-) S
participants (7)
-
Barry Warsaw -
Brett Cannon -
Donald Stufft -
Guido van Rossum -
Mark Sapiro -
Skip Montanaro -
Stephen J. Turnbull