Looks like the maintainer is burning out: https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/ If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just become a bit more important.
Oh, man! :-( It's the tragedy of the commons. The ReadTheDocs team is close to burn-out too, as is of course our own Donald "PyPI is not my middle name" Stufft. Companies using open source really need to take care better of their infrastructure, and we can't always look at Google or Mozilla. On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
Looks like the maintainer is burning out: https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just become a bit more important.
_______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
Yep. Nadia Eghbal's Ford Foundation report is unfortunately very accurate and topical, but that isn't news to anyone on this list (I hope). Anyway, the reason I brought it up is that I know people have used gmane to access our mailing lists and if it goes away then we lose the one web-accessible solution to our mailing lists in terms of replying, etc. (or at least the one that I'm aware of). Does MM3 have a solution if gmane goes away? On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 at 11:31 Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
Oh, man! :-(
It's the tragedy of the commons. The ReadTheDocs team is close to burn-out too, as is of course our own Donald "PyPI is not my middle name" Stufft.
Companies using open source really need to take care better of their infrastructure, and we can't always look at Google or Mozilla.
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
Looks like the maintainer is burning out: https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just become a bit more important.
_______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
I don't want to speak for Steve, but I thought that was the whole point of MM3? Or at least HyperKitty? On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
Yep. Nadia Eghbal's Ford Foundation report is unfortunately very accurate and topical, but that isn't news to anyone on this list (I hope).
Anyway, the reason I brought it up is that I know people have used gmane to access our mailing lists and if it goes away then we lose the one web-accessible solution to our mailing lists in terms of replying, etc. (or at least the one that I'm aware of). Does MM3 have a solution if gmane goes away?
On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 at 11:31 Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
Oh, man! :-(
It's the tragedy of the commons. The ReadTheDocs team is close to burn-out too, as is of course our own Donald "PyPI is not my middle name" Stufft.
Companies using open source really need to take care better of their infrastructure, and we can't always look at Google or Mozilla.
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
Looks like the maintainer is burning out: https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just become a bit more important.
_______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
On Jul 28, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
I don't want to speak for Steve, but I thought that was the whole point of MM3? Or at least HyperKitty?
I do believe this is the purpose of HyperKitty. Although from a quick clicking around on the Fedora HyperKitty instance it doesn’t actually let you reply via the web, the “Reply” button is just a mailto: link with the correct values filled out (including In-Reply-To and such). This might be close enough to not matter? I’m not sure. — Donald Stufft
On Jul 28, 2016, at 03:20 PM, Donald Stufft wrote:
I do believe this is the purpose of HyperKitty. Although from a quick clicking around on the Fedora HyperKitty instance it doesn’t actually let you reply via the web, the “Reply” button is just a mailto: link with the correct values filled out (including In-Reply-To and such). This might be close enough to not matter? I’m not sure.
You can play with an instance of HK on lists.mailman3.org (there's also one on python.org that Mark is building out). Bottom line, yes, you can reply via the web to messages on the mailing list. E.g. https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/thread/X... Note the "Use email software" button which provides the mailto:, however just filling out the form and hitting Send will post it back to the mailing list via internal REST APIs, so no MUA is needed. Note however that logging into HK (and Postorius) is going to change soon. We've been relying on Mozilla's Persona project to do logins because it's just about perfect for Mailman, but Mozilla is shutting down that service, and while the code is open source, it's very unlikely anyone is going to continue to run a Persona instance. Dan Callahan from Mozilla demoed a much simpler replacement at PyconUS 2016, which could fill the same purpose, but I haven't heard anything more about that in a long while, so it's not a viable option. Meaning, for *right* now, Google or Facebook logins will be needed, but IIUC, our wonderful HK/Postorius developers are working on integrating django-social-auth which is more or less the norm for logging into a Django site. Ideally of course, if/when python.org gets SSO, we could use that too. That's all in addition to the two integration points I mentioned early. Way back in the day, I prototyped a NNTP/Mailman bridge using Twisted and it worked pretty well. Given that MM3 today has a very robust REST API, and HK has a very nice web ui, I think something Gmane-lite-like could be done with a reasonable amount of effort. It would be fairly siloed, in that the only lists available from the NNTP server would be those vended by MM3 on that site, but I think that's good enough. NNTP does have ways to propagate mailing lists, so once you had an NNTP interface, it probably wouldn't be difficult to federate them somehow. MM3 also has a very flexible "archiver" interface, which is where I think an NNTP ui would fit in. We also have a GSoC student doing excellent work on a pubsub archiver which just about any external system could be connected to. So even if (as I'm sure we all hope) Lars finds a way to continue Gmane going, these APIs would serve as a better way to get messages into and out of a Mailman 3 mailing list. Cheers, -Barry
On 7/28/16, 11:31 AM, "Overload-sig on behalf of Guido van Rossum" <overload-sig-bounces+kevin-lists=theolliviers.com@python.org on behalf of guido@python.org> wrote:
Oh, man! :-(
It's the tragedy of the commons. The ReadTheDocs team is close to burn-out too, as is of course our own Donald "PyPI is not my middle name" Stufft.
Companies using open source really need to take care better of their infrastructure, and we can't always look at Google or Mozilla.
Has Python ever dabbled with a sort of Red Hat like support contract system, say custom development services, e.g. optimization and debugging assistance? I will say that until I joined these lists I really had no idea that PyPI largely (completely?) has fallen on the shoulders of one guy. :( Given the size of Python and PyPI, I would never have guessed that, though if it's any consolation to Donald, it does sort of make him a superhero. :) Honestly, after this major upcoming Nov. 1st deadline I have for my educational startup, if I haven't gone broke ;) , I'd be happy to contribute money, time or both. It's insane that something relied upon by so many has so few resources devoted to it. Anyway, as it was in my case, I suspect part of the problem is one of awareness. I'm fairly certain with PyPI that a large number of people who could afford to pay would have real problems if it went away. Maybe blowing the horn would help? Do one of those Wikipedia-like drives on the PyPI index or Python itself? Thanks, Kevin
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
Looks like the maintainer is burning out: https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just become a bit more important.
_______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
I'm going to stop myself from replying because this is already veering off-topic for this mailing list. If you would like answers to your questions, Kevin, feel free to email me off-list. On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 at 12:11 Kevin Ollivier <kevin-lists@theolliviers.com> wrote:
On 7/28/16, 11:31 AM, "Overload-sig on behalf of Guido van Rossum" <overload-sig-bounces+kevin-lists=theolliviers.com@python.org on behalf of guido@python.org> wrote:
Oh, man! :-(
It's the tragedy of the commons. The ReadTheDocs team is close to burn-out too, as is of course our own Donald "PyPI is not my middle name" Stufft.
Companies using open source really need to take care better of their infrastructure, and we can't always look at Google or Mozilla.
Has Python ever dabbled with a sort of Red Hat like support contract system, say custom development services, e.g. optimization and debugging assistance?
I will say that until I joined these lists I really had no idea that PyPI largely (completely?) has fallen on the shoulders of one guy. :( Given the size of Python and PyPI, I would never have guessed that, though if it's any consolation to Donald, it does sort of make him a superhero. :) Honestly, after this major upcoming Nov. 1st deadline I have for my educational startup, if I haven't gone broke ;) , I'd be happy to contribute money, time or both. It's insane that something relied upon by so many has so few resources devoted to it.
Anyway, as it was in my case, I suspect part of the problem is one of awareness. I'm fairly certain with PyPI that a large number of people who could afford to pay would have real problems if it went away. Maybe blowing the horn would help? Do one of those Wikipedia-like drives on the PyPI index or Python itself?
Thanks,
Kevin
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
Looks like the maintainer is burning out: https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just become a bit more important.
_______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
Guido van Rossum writes:
Companies using open source really need to take care better of their infrastructure,
A bunch of ideas about this occured to me, but I decided this is not the place or time. If you can't wait for the blog post (nb, I don't have a blog at the moment :-þ), write me off-list.
If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just become a bit more important.
That depends on whether Gmane users use the web interface or the NNTP interface. If the latter, MM2 has a bidirectional mail<->news gateway. I guess we'd need to spin up a separate news server, but we could restrict it to carrying python.org lists. MM3 doesn't have an NNTP gateway yet, but it shouldn't be hard to add one. As I mentioned, I'm now free to do socially useful things. I will get in touch with Mark to get the MM3 version of this list running. I will post an annotated, tentative agenda after reviewing earlier posts on this list and on the Discourse instance. I expect that will elicit additional items (ones I missed and ones suggested to somebody by the list), and some items will be postponed indefinitely. Steve
On Jul 28, 2016, at 05:48 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
Looks like the maintainer is burning out: https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
I'm just reading about this after about a week off the net. I have a lot of catching up to do, but I think there may be ways Mailman 3 can help here. We've long discussed providing a built-in NNTP (and/or IMAP), and given the MM3 architecture I don't think it would be a ton of work for someone with Python 3 experience, protocol knowledge, and time. ;) I read a follow up comment saying that Lars will be keeping the NNTP/SMTP bridge up, so I'm going to contact Aurelien (the HyperKitty project lead) to see if he has any thoughts on how well HK could front the existing Gmane archive. Cheers, -Barry
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
Looks like the maintainer is burning out: https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
That is strange. I just got a positive email reply from him a few days ago in response to my query about creating a couple read-only Gmane mirrors for some defunct bike-related mailing lists which aren't currently visible to search engine crawlers. Skip
participants (7)
-
Barry Warsaw -
Brett Cannon -
Donald Stufft -
Guido van Rossum -
Kevin Ollivier -
Skip Montanaro -
Stephen J. Turnbull