I have to agree with Skip -- the HK UI seems to take an exorbitant amount of screen space. I also don't think I like the use of indents to indicate reply -- it makes a simple back-and-forth go ever more indented, which squeezes the followup messages. I realize this is a bit of a tradition in email (the standard reply-quoting convention has the same effect, though in the opposite direction) but I think we should not feel constrained by those conventions. Maybe we can do something like "git --graph" and display a graph of the message tree alongside the messages? The border between HK and MM3 also feels unsmooth. When you go to the MM3 info page for a list (e.g. https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/overload-sig.python.org/ which was quoted here before) the "archives" link, which is all I really care about, is hidden in the text (and it has the modern CSS affliction of not underlining links unless you hover over them, which makes them hard to find give the small difference in contrast between regular text and link test). And what is "Postorius" and why does it have a link in the header of the MM3 page? On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:

On 08/02/2016 12:27 PM, Skip Montanaro wrote:

...

Hopefully since we are supposed to be kicking the tires of the MM3 version of the list, it's appropriate to ask somewhat meta questions about it.

Yes, I think it's appropriate.

...

Is the archive supposed to consume so much screen space to display so little information? I didn't see any settings link in the archive section, so may have missed the opportunity. Still it seems like when viewing the first page of the archives you should see more than four threads. I realize not many threads have been created so far (this will probably show up as thread #5), but the amount of wasted vertical space seems large to my unadjusted-to-MM3 eyes.

Granted it's way different from what you're used to in MM 2.1. If you have specific suggestions for improvement, I think the place for them is <https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues>, but I also think it's fine to discuss it here, but this is not my list, so perhaps my opinion should be discounted.

Also, keep in mind that HyperKitty is just the default archiver for Mailman 3. It is possible to use external services such as <https://www.mail-archive.com/> and Gmane, although as noted here, Gmane is going or gone.

It is also possible with Mailman 3's modular architecture to implement a totally different archiver to be integrated like HyperKitty, but as far as I know, no one has done that yet.

That said, HyperKitty has great features. The search capability reduces the need for a denser display, and the ability to post and reply directly from HyperKitty is a big improvement.

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/overload-sig.python.org/

-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

Sorry, "git log --graph". I'm not going to the MM3/HK tracker yet because I can't even tell where one ends and the other begins. Busy... On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:

I agree that this list is appropriate to discuss meta questions, but you should keep in mind that the web ui designers for HyperKitty and Postorious don't read this list AFAICT, so feedback won't get to them unless we actively forward it on.

For specific issues related to the ui design or functionality, the GitLab tracker is probably the best place to report them. This is the Mailman group, which includes the core engine (called Mailman), the HyperKitty archiver, and Postorius (see below):

https://gitlab.com/groups/mailman

I'll also say that *I* am not a web ui designer, so while I also have opinions and may agree with yours about the look, feel, and usability of these tools, you probably don't want me mucking about with the ui. ;)

On Aug 02, 2016, at 01:35 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

...

Maybe we can do something like "git --graph" and display a graph of the message tree alongside the messages?

"git --graph"?

...

The border between HK and MM3 also feels unsmooth. [...] And what is "Postorius" and why does it have a link in the header of the MM3 page?

Postorius is your personal landing page. It's kind of like your MM2 options page and, if your a list administrator, the list configuration page rolled into one. It's your dashboard, and the overview of all the mailing lists available.

Postorius is a separate thing from HyperKitty, but both are Django applications living (in mpo's case) in the same Django instance. They're separate because sites may choose to use both, one-or-the-other, or none of any of these tools. The only piece of the puzzle which is required is the core engine. It provides a REST API that all the other tools talk to. The Core has no web ui.

That said, I do expect most sites to turnkey all the components together, much like they do with MM2. It's *possible* to split things up in MM2 (see Launchpad mailing lists as an example), but it's certainly not fun.

It couldn't hurt to look at how to not only make the individual components nicer, but also how to make the likely combination of them work more smoothly. mailman-developers@python.org is the best place for those sorts of integration discussions, and if you know good web designers and Django developers, please do send them our way.

Cheers, -Barry

-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

Barry Warsaw writes:

I agree that this list is appropriate to discuss meta questions, but you should keep in mind that the web ui designers for HyperKitty and Postorious don't read this list AFAICT, so feedback won't get to them unless we actively forward it on.

I'll collect those, as the official Mailman advocate.

I'll also say that *I* am not a web ui designer, so while I also have opinions and may agree with yours about the look, feel, and usability of these tools, you probably don't want me mucking about with the ui. ;)

I don't think any of the people working on the implementations claim to be ui experts. The basic design goes back to some blog post that Mairin wrote years ago, but she hasn't reviewed the implementation AFAIK.

It couldn't hurt to look at how to not only make the individual components nicer, but also how to make the likely combination of them work more smoothly. mailman-developers@python.org is the best place for those sorts of integration discussions,

I tend to disagree. Guido has *very* different tastes from "email tradition", and I think his views have merit for Python dev channels. I'm not sure they're so valid for the general population. I rather doubt the current folks are going to like the idea of major changes to the look and feel, after the trouble I had getting them to ensure that radio buttons appear on the same line as the tag.[1] ;-) As far as component integration, that should be customizable by replacing a Django template. Such customization capability might need to be TOOWTDI-ized, and that would go through mailman-developers, of course!

and if you know good web designers and Django developers, please do send them our way.

+1 Steve Footnotes: [1] It's still possible to make those displays *very* ugly by resizing windows and/or changing fonts, though I had to really work at it. I think this is a matter of the Postorius/HyperKitty implementers *not* being web UI specialists, rather than differing tastes.