I asked two weeks ago on discuss.python.org but only Donald replied with a guess of where things sit. Are we currently waiting for a test instance of MM3 to play with? If so where does that currently sit and is there anything we can help with to make it happen? If that's not what's holding us up then what is?
I'm personally waiting for a MM3 instance we can play with. I don't recall seeing your question or maybe I felt I was waiting for Steve's response. I'm getting cold feet about Discourse -- the UI is pretty complex and has a bit of a learning curve. The main lists have repeated the basic sins many times though since we started this -- most recently IIRC the discussion about whether to add an ABC that combines Sized, Iterable, Container degenerated into some side topic. So there's still something to be done IMO. On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 3:22 PM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
I asked two weeks ago on discuss.python.org but only Donald replied with a guess of where things sit. Are we currently waiting for a test instance of MM3 to play with? If so where does that currently sit and is there anything we can help with to make it happen? If that's not what's holding us up then what is?
_______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
Yes, I definitely agree that the problem has not gone away with time. So if we're waiting for MM3 to try out then I guess we're waiting to hear from Stephen since he was initially pushing that part of the process? On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 at 16:59 Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
I'm personally waiting for a MM3 instance we can play with.
I don't recall seeing your question or maybe I felt I was waiting for Steve's response.
I'm getting cold feet about Discourse -- the UI is pretty complex and has a bit of a learning curve.
The main lists have repeated the basic sins many times though since we started this -- most recently IIRC the discussion about whether to add an ABC that combines Sized, Iterable, Container degenerated into some side topic. So there's still something to be done IMO.
I asked two weeks ago on discuss.python.org but only Donald replied with a guess of where things sit. Are we currently waiting for a test instance of MM3 to play with? If so where does that currently sit and is there anything we can help with to make it happen? If that's not what's holding us up
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 3:22 PM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote: then
what is?
_______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
Brett Cannon writes:
I asked two weeks ago on discuss.python.org but only Donald replied with a guess of where things sit.
Yes, I'm sorry about that. $DAYJOB has been hell, and around the beginning of July xemacs.org's nameservers (provided by tux.org) went away without warning. I should have communicated -- mea maxima culpa! -- but I just haven't had the stomach to even look at mail except for absolutely necessary work stuff. My last $DAYJOB commitment with a deadline is a student's defense on Friday, then I'm free to be productive for the summer. I do really really want to see this guy's back, so I'm pretty much at his service for the duration.
Are we currently waiting for a test instance of MM3 to play with?
mail.python.org already supports Mailman 3 to some extent. I think Mark may already have made an overload-sig list, I need to communicate with him. I think I just need to populate it and then he changes the MTA alias, and this list becomes a Mailman 3 list.
If that's not what's holding us up then what is?
Mostly, she turned me into a nyewt. ... But it got bettah! Steve -- Associate Professor Department of Policy and Planning Science http://turnbull/sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/ Faculty of Systems and Information Email: turnbull@sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tel: 029-853-5175 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
Thanks for the update, Steve! And as a PhD myself I appreciate you making sure your defending student has the support they need. On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 at 19:54 Stephen J. Turnbull < turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
Brett Cannon writes:
I asked two weeks ago on discuss.python.org but only Donald replied with a guess of where things sit.
Yes, I'm sorry about that. $DAYJOB has been hell, and around the beginning of July xemacs.org's nameservers (provided by tux.org) went away without warning. I should have communicated -- mea maxima culpa! -- but I just haven't had the stomach to even look at mail except for absolutely necessary work stuff.
My last $DAYJOB commitment with a deadline is a student's defense on Friday, then I'm free to be productive for the summer. I do really really want to see this guy's back, so I'm pretty much at his service for the duration.
Are we currently waiting for a test instance of MM3 to play with?
mail.python.org already supports Mailman 3 to some extent. I think Mark may already have made an overload-sig list, I need to communicate with him. I think I just need to populate it and then he changes the MTA alias, and this list becomes a Mailman 3 list.
If that's not what's holding us up then what is?
Mostly, she turned me into a nyewt. ... But it got bettah!
Steve
-- Associate Professor Department of Policy and Planning Science http://turnbull/sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/ Faculty of Systems and Information Email: turnbull@sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tel: 029-853-5175 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
On Jul 27, 2016, at 01:54 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:
So if we're waiting for MM3 to try out then I guess we're waiting to hear from Stephen since he was initially pushing that part of the process?
In the meantime, I'm CC'ing Mark Sapiro who can provide more detail on the operational aspects of Mailman 3 on python.org infrastructure. From a project perspective, as I mentioned previously, our big hangup right now is migrating away from Mozilla's soon to be decommissioned Persona project, to django-social-auth. My understanding is that branches are in progress there (it's one of the big blockers for MM3.1). Cheers, -Barry
On 07/29/2016 01:35 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
In the meantime, I'm CC'ing Mark Sapiro who can provide more detail on the operational aspects of Mailman 3 on python.org infrastructure.
Mailman 3 is operational on python.org. The web UI, Postorius and HyperKitty, is at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/>. There are currently 5 lists:
List name Post address Description GeoPython-Organizers geopython-organizers@python.org Organisation of the yearly GeoPython Conference GeoPython geopython@python.org GeoPython Discussions - general discussions about Python & Geo MM3_test mm3_test@python.org Mailman 3 test list Overload-sig overload-sig@python.org Overload SIG: discussion of ways to improve discourse on Python development channels SwissPythonSummit swisspythonsummit@python.org Discussions about the yearly Python conference in Switzerland
MM3_test is my playground. Overload-sig was set up to migrate the Mailman 2.1 list of the same name, but this hasn't been done yet - Postfix is setup so if there is both an MM 3 list and an MM 2.1 list with the same name, mail is delivered to the 2.1 list. The other 3 lists are actual lists requested by people who were willing to try Mailman 3. The GeoPython list has over 60 members and archived posts.
From a project perspective, as I mentioned previously, our big hangup right now is migrating away from Mozilla's soon to be decommissioned Persona project, to django-social-auth. My understanding is that branches are in progress there (it's one of the big blockers for MM3.1).
That of course affects the python.org installation. I am going to try to add both GitHub and GitLab as additional OAuth2 providers. Currently we have only Google and Facebook. Yahoo works, but I won't make it available until we get some DMARC mitigations for MM 3. Twitter is problematic - they will authenticate you but don't give us your email address. Note that I will be on a back country hiking trip from August 5 - 16 and will be totally off-line for most of that time. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Steve, could you translate this? Its so full of arcane implementation jargon that the only thing i understood was the part about going on a trip. On Friday, July 29, 2016, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 07/29/2016 01:35 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
In the meantime, I'm CC'ing Mark Sapiro who can provide more detail on
the
operational aspects of Mailman 3 on python.org infrastructure.
Mailman 3 is operational on python.org. The web UI, Postorius and HyperKitty, is at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/>.
There are currently 5 lists:
List name Post address Description GeoPython-Organizers geopython-organizers@python.org <javascript:;> Organisation of the yearly GeoPython Conference GeoPython geopython@python.org <javascript:;> GeoPython Discussions - general discussions about Python & Geo MM3_test mm3_test@python.org <javascript:;> Mailman 3 test list Overload-sig overload-sig@python.org <javascript:;> Overload SIG: discussion of ways to improve discourse on Python development channels SwissPythonSummit swisspythonsummit@python.org <javascript:;> Discussions about the yearly Python conference in Switzerland
MM3_test is my playground. Overload-sig was set up to migrate the Mailman 2.1 list of the same name, but this hasn't been done yet - Postfix is setup so if there is both an MM 3 list and an MM 2.1 list with the same name, mail is delivered to the 2.1 list.
The other 3 lists are actual lists requested by people who were willing to try Mailman 3. The GeoPython list has over 60 members and archived posts.
From a project perspective, as I mentioned previously, our big hangup right now is migrating away from Mozilla's soon to be decommissioned Persona project, to django-social-auth. My understanding is that branches are in progress there (it's one of the big blockers for MM3.1).
That of course affects the python.org installation. I am going to try to add both GitHub and GitLab as additional OAuth2 providers. Currently we have only Google and Facebook. Yahoo works, but I won't make it available until we get some DMARC mitigations for MM 3. Twitter is problematic - they will authenticate you but don't give us your email address.
Note that I will be on a back country hiking trip from August 5 - 16 and will be totally off-line for most of that time.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net <javascript:;>> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan _______________________________________________ Overload-sig mailing list Overload-sig@python.org <javascript:;> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
-- --Guido (mobile)
On 07/31/2016 08:34 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Steve, could you translate this? Its so full of arcane implementation jargon that the only thing i understood was the part about going on a trip.
Let me try again. Mailman 3 is operational @python.org. The web UI is at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/>. There are few MM 3 lists in use @python.org. There is an overload-sig list with a web UI at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/overload-sig.python.org/>. The intent is to migrate the Mailman 2.1 overload-sig@python.org list to the Mailman 3 list, but that isn't done yet. The Mailman 3 story for user authentication is in flux at the moment because the generic authentication method is Mozilla Persona which is going away later this year. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
OK, thanks! I am anxious to see this list migrated to MM3 -- it's just a small number of us and the point of the list is mostly to see new tools in action -- if the transition is a bit rocky that's fine, there are only a handful of us. I'm curious why MM3 doesn't let you log in with email and password directly? What benefit did Mozilla's service have? Was it just that Mozilla handled password security? On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 9:05 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
On 07/31/2016 08:34 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Steve, could you translate this? Its so full of arcane implementation jargon that the only thing i understood was the part about going on a trip.
Let me try again.
Mailman 3 is operational @python.org.
The web UI is at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/>.
There are few MM 3 lists in use @python.org.
There is an overload-sig list with a web UI at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/overload-sig.python.org/>. The intent is to migrate the Mailman 2.1 overload-sig@python.org list to the Mailman 3 list, but that isn't done yet.
The Mailman 3 story for user authentication is in flux at the moment because the generic authentication method is Mozilla Persona which is going away later this year.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
Guido van Rossum writes:
I'm curious why MM3 doesn't let you log in with email and password directly? What benefit did Mozilla's service have? Was it just that Mozilla handled password security?
That's the basic rationale. Mailman core's security is still dependent on host security and not exposing control protocols to the network, so the more aspects of user authentication and authorization we can delegate to a service created and maintained by security experts the better. This also allows us to avoid maintaining such critical services in multiple places (Postorius and HyperKitty for now). Use of Persona seemed to allow us to depend on such expertise for both single-sign-on (via Google or whatever) and password authentication. Steve
On Jul 31, 2016, at 05:54 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
OK, thanks! I am anxious to see this list migrated to MM3 -- it's just a small number of us and the point of the list is mostly to see new tools in action -- if the transition is a bit rocky that's fine, there are only a handful of us.
+1 - Mark should JFDI when he gets back online.
I'm curious why MM3 doesn't let you log in with email and password directly? What benefit did Mozilla's service have? Was it just that Mozilla handled password security?
Persona was essentially an email-based single sign-on system. It was a perfect match for Mailman because they only thing you had to prove was that you controlled your email address - exactly (and essentially *only*) the thing that Mailman cares about. It also had the nice property of being distributed; persona.org was one common provider anybody could use, but you could run your own Persona service for your domain if you wanted. It's too bad that it just didn't catch on. I remember talking to Dan Callahan about the whys of that at Pycon 2015, but I don't remember much of the details. The software of course is open source, but I doubt anybody will pick it up so both the service and project are effectively defunct. Cheers, -Barry
On 08/01/2016 07:18 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Jul 31, 2016, at 05:54 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
OK, thanks! I am anxious to see this list migrated to MM3 -- it's just a small number of us and the point of the list is mostly to see new tools in action -- if the transition is a bit rocky that's fine, there are only a handful of us.
+1 - Mark should JFDI when he gets back online.
I'm not off line until Friday. I'll do it tomorrow. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 08/01/2016 06:13 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 08/01/2016 07:18 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Jul 31, 2016, at 05:54 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
OK, thanks! I am anxious to see this list migrated to MM3 -- it's just a small number of us and the point of the list is mostly to see new tools in action -- if the transition is a bit rocky that's fine, there are only a handful of us.
+1 - Mark should JFDI when he gets back online.
I'm not off line until Friday. I'll do it tomorrow.
This list is now a Mailman 3 list. I have also subscribed myself and added myself as an owner along with Steve. I expect my membership/ownership to be very temporary. Posts go to overload-sig@python.org as before and will be archived at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/archives/list/overload-sig@python.org/>. The prior archive at <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/overload-sig/> still exists, but new posts will not be added there. I am still available through Thursday if any immediate issues arise. I will then be off line through Aug 16. -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
participants (6)
-
Barry Warsaw -
Brett Cannon -
Guido van Rossum -
Guido van Rossum -
Mark Sapiro -
Stephen J. Turnbull