A new planet for user group blog postings!
Hi all, I've been speaking with Doug Hellmann recently about setting up a new planet (blog feed aggregater) for Python user group blog feeds. The idea would be to augment the efforts of http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ (not to impugn their work!) and provide a way to get some good user group buzz going. (It's kind of a lot to ask of user groups to make "special" blog entries on http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ whereas it's reasonable to assume a user group can setup their own blog and post to it, I think? Or at least I could easily send a feed to it from http://blog.aclark.net, for example, relating to ZPUGDC's activities.) I'd like to volunteer to do this work. Now, I don't know anything about the Python community's infrastructure, but I am currently serving as "infrastructure team" leader in the Plone community ( http://admins.plone.org). I have a system administration background ( http://aclark.net/resume) and I'd love to help! :-) Alex P.S. I also don't have a lot of free time, but I'm willing to make the time and commitment over the new few months, for example. -- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author — Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/admin
On 29/07/2010 00:37, Alex Clark wrote:
Hi all,
I've been speaking with Doug Hellmann recently about setting up a new planet (blog feed aggregater) for Python user group blog feeds.
Why not just add the user group blogs to the existing planet? Michael
The idea would be to augment the efforts of http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ (not to impugn their work!) and provide a way to get some good user group buzz going. (It's kind of a lot to ask of user groups to make "special" blog entries on http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ whereas it's reasonable to assume a user group can setup their own blog and post to it, I think? Or at least I could easily send a feed to it from http://blog.aclark.net, for example, relating to ZPUGDC's activities.)
I'd like to volunteer to do this work. Now, I don't know anything about the Python community's infrastructure, but I am currently serving as "infrastructure team" leader in the Plone community (http://admins.plone.org). I have a system administration background (http://aclark.net/resume) and I'd love to help! :-)
Alex
P.S. I also don't have a lot of free time, but I'm willing to make the time and commitment over the new few months, for example.
-- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author — Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/admin
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On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord@python.org> wrote:
On 29/07/2010 00:37, Alex Clark wrote:
Hi all,
I've been speaking with Doug Hellmann recently about setting up a new planet (blog feed aggregater) for Python user group blog feeds.
Why not just add the user group blogs to the existing planet?
Good question, I think because the point is to create a "user group feed". As an individual, I'm starting to think about joining Planet Python for Python-specific posts. But I'd join the "Happenings in Python User groups" planet to post PUG-specific things. Again, I don't want to step on http://python-groups.blogspot.com/'s (and Jeff Rush's) toes. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make it easier for me to post, and hoping that will make it easier for others too. I think I posted once, http://python-groups.blogspot.com/2008/12/zpugdc-dc-python-meetup-december.h.... And it looks like posting is down about this year, with only 7 posts in 2010. I picture a link to it fitting in well in the "Other Python Planets" section here: http://planet.python.org/.
Michael
The idea would be to augment the efforts of http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ (not to impugn their work!) and provide a way to get some good user group buzz going. (It's kind of a lot to ask of user groups to make "special" blog entries on http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ whereas it's reasonable to assume a user group can setup their own blog and post to it, I think? Or at least I could easily send a feed to it from http://blog.aclark.net, for example, relating to ZPUGDC's activities.)
I'd like to volunteer to do this work. Now, I don't know anything about the Python community's infrastructure, but I am currently serving as "infrastructure team" leader in the Plone community ( http://admins.plone.org). I have a system administration background ( http://aclark.net/resume) and I'd love to help! :-)
Alex
P.S. I also don't have a lot of free time, but I'm willing to make the time and commitment over the new few months, for example.
-- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author — Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/admin
_______________________________________________ pydotorg-www mailing listpydotorg-www@python.orghttp://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
-- http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog
READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (”BOGUS AGREEMENTS”) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
-- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author — Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/admin
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010, Alex Clark wrote:
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord@python.org> wrote:
On 29/07/2010 00:37, Alex Clark wrote:
I've been speaking with Doug Hellmann recently about setting up a new planet (blog feed aggregater) for Python user group blog feeds.
Why not just add the user group blogs to the existing planet?
Good question, I think because the point is to create a "user group feed".
As an individual, I'm starting to think about joining Planet Python for Python-specific posts. But I'd join the "Happenings in Python User groups" planet to post PUG-specific things. Again, I don't want to step on http://python-groups.blogspot.com/'s (and Jeff Rush's) toes. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make it easier for me to post, and hoping that will make it easier for others too.
My take is similar to Michael's: I can't imagine caring about user groups generally. Take a look at wiki LocalUserGroups -- there are way too many. So I'd bet that people would mostly subscribe only to specific groups' blogs. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..." --Siobhan
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Aahz <aahz@pythoncraft.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010, Alex Clark wrote:
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord@python.org> wrote:
On 29/07/2010 00:37, Alex Clark wrote:
I've been speaking with Doug Hellmann recently about setting up a new planet (blog feed aggregater) for Python user group blog feeds.
Why not just add the user group blogs to the existing planet?
Good question, I think because the point is to create a "user group feed".
As an individual, I'm starting to think about joining Planet Python for Python-specific posts. But I'd join the "Happenings in Python User groups" planet to post PUG-specific things. Again, I don't want to step on http://python-groups.blogspot.com/'s<http://python-groups.blogspot.com/%27s>(and Jeff Rush's) toes. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make it easier for me to post, and hoping that will make it easier for others too.
My take is similar to Michael's: I can't imagine caring about user groups generally. Take a look at wiki LocalUserGroups -- there are way too many. So I'd bet that people would mostly subscribe only to specific groups' blogs.
Right, but the point is… we know no one cares about user groups :-) We're trying to get people to care about user groups ;-). In particular, we're trying to empower user groups and one way to do that is to give them a spotlight of sorts. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "way too many". Can you have too many user groups? You can certainly have a hard time keeping track of them all (and keeping the list current), but that's a different story…
-- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
"....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..." --Siobhan _______________________________________________ pydotorg-www mailing list pydotorg-www@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
-- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author — Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/admin
Alex Clark wrote:
Right, but the point is… we know no one cares about user groups :-) We're trying to get people to care about user groups ;-). In particular, we're trying to empower user groups and one way to do that is to give them a spotlight of sorts.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "way too many". Can you have too many user groups? You can certainly have a hard time keeping track of them all (and keeping the list current), but that's a different story…
I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then following just those groups. A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be getting why I would care what all user groups are doing. That said, I would be perfectly fine if all of them blogged and showed up on planet python since I already expect there to be far more than I can read there and I just skim for what I'm interested in reading. - Stephan
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel <sdeibel@wingware.com>wrote:
Alex Clark wrote:
Right, but the point is… we know no one cares about user groups :-) We're trying to get people to care about user groups ;-). In particular, we're trying to empower user groups and one way to do that is to give them a spotlight of sorts.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "way too many". Can you have too many user groups? You can certainly have a hard time keeping track of them all (and keeping the list current), but that's a different story…
I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then following just those groups. A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
You are. And I hadn't really intended to get into this too much, but suffice it to say there are people interested collaboration between user groups for the purposes of advancing the state of the art (of grass roots support). If a software community's grass roots support is strong (i.e. lots of user group activity) then lots of Good Things Can Happen™, including: - People interested in the software have a local resource, a place to meet and gather with other like-minded folks, and possibly get a job. - Organizations in the local community have a resource where they can find Good People™ - All manner of productivity can occur in the form of user group meetings, sprints, trainings, conferences, etc., powered by the folks described in the previous two bullet points. If the software community does not support local user groups, then Bad Things Can Happen™, including: - None of the above 3 bullet points can occur. - Folks interested in supporting the software become discouraged, when the software community does not support their efforts (i.e. folks like me. While I'm used to pushing the envelope, and dealing with different-minded folks, and trying to encourage change, other folks may not be as persistent).
That said, I would be perfectly fine if all of them blogged and showed up on planet python since I already expect there to be far more than I can read there and I just skim for what I'm interested in reading.
Right, but there is no incentive for them (or anyone interested in them), if the blog postings are not aggregated into a separate feed… again, not looking to debate anyone here, just offering to do something that Doug Hellmann and I discussed and both thought was an interesting idea ;-) This should be a trivial addition IMVHO to python.org that either helps or does nothing… In case it helps, take a look at http://meetup.zpugdc.org. We have approximately 300 Python programmers in our membership, 20 of which show up every month for meetings. And a growing list of sponsors from the local business/gov/non-profit community (well, no gov sponsors yet). The idea is as simple as this: I want to help build these kind of organizations worldwide, but I can't do it alone. We need the support of the software communities, whose software we advocate to take the idea seriously.
- Stephan
-- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author — Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/admin
Alex Clark wrote:
You are. And I hadn't really intended to get into this too much, but suffice it to say there are people interested collaboration between user groups for the purposes of advancing the state of the art (of grass roots support).
Ah, yes, I hadn't thought of group organizers themselves as the audience, and that makes sense to me (as do Doug's related points). In case you don't already know there is an old email list for this too (group organizers helping each other): http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers -- but it's rarely used last I checked. Looking at the revision log for the users groups wiki page, it does seem some people update it but I'm sure it's incomplete and outdated in part as well. Thanks for working on this! - Stephan
On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
Alex Clark wrote:
Right, but the point is… we know no one cares about user groups :-) We're trying to get people to care about user groups ;-). In particular, we're trying to empower user groups and one way to do that is to give them a spotlight of sorts.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "way too many". Can you have too many user groups? You can certainly have a hard time keeping track of them all (and keeping the list current), but that's a different story…
I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then following just those groups. A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
There would be several benefits to having a single place for all Python user group news: 1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user groups. Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about establishing a federation of regional/international foundations to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for those new foundations. 2. People interested in finding a local user group would have a place to look. We do have a wiki page for user groups now, but I don't know how up to date it is. The first step of this project might be to update it and incorporate the results into 3. Members or organizers of user groups who want to enhance their meetings to find new activities would have an easy way to learn about those. The second phase of the project, after the new planet feed is established, would be to encourage members of the user groups to write about their meetings. 4. User groups who want to collaborate and set up speaking tours, regional conferences, sprints, or other combined activities would have a place to advertise. These sorts of notices could go on the existing planet feed, too, but see #2. 5. Non-members would have a way to find out about upcoming activities being run by groups near them, but perhaps not in the same town. See #3 and #2. All of these uses are different than the existing planet feed, which is predominantly aggregating posts written by individuals about their own work. The tone, and potential audience, for the new planet may be different than a heads-down technical audience of the existing planet. Doug
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then following just those groups. A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
There would be several benefits to having a single place for all Python user group news:
1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user groups. Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about establishing a federation of regional/international foundations to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for those new foundations.
Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal? We could make this an aggregator for "community news". We would explicitly label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g. conference news, sprints, and so on. The python.org news feed could then be one of the first sources. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..." --Siobhan
On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Aahz wrote:
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then following just those groups. A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
There would be several benefits to having a single place for all Python user group news:
1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user groups. Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about establishing a federation of regional/international foundations to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for those new foundations.
Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal? We could make this an aggregator for "community news". We would explicitly label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g. conference news, sprints, and so on. The python.org news feed could then be one of the first sources.
That makes a lot of sense. We could pull posts from the blog for the new sprint project Jesse is organizing and the pyfound blog (maybe limited to a specific tag, to avoid cross-posting everything). Alex, what do you think? Doug
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann@gmail.com>wrote:
On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Aahz wrote:
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then following just those groups. A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
There would be several benefits to having a single place for all Python user group news:
1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user groups. Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about establishing a federation of regional/international foundations to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for those new foundations.
Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal? We could make this an aggregator for "community news". We would explicitly label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g. conference news, sprints, and so on. The python.org news feed could then be one of the first sources.
That makes a lot of sense. We could pull posts from the blog for the new sprint project Jesse is organizing and the pyfound blog (maybe limited to a specific tag, to avoid cross-posting everything).
Alex, what do you think?
Sure, if I understand correctly there is agreement to the idea of a new planet for "community news", and http://python.org/news/ would feed to it, as would any UG that wanted to. I also pictured this "community news" feed going to planet.python.org at some point, if it proved successful. Feed madness! :-) Thanks, all for considering. And let me know if I can be of any assistance in implementing if you decide to move forward. Alex
Doug
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-- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author — Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/admin
On 29/07/2010 17:04, Alex Clark wrote:
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann@gmail.com <mailto:doug.hellmann@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Aahz wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote: >> On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote: >>> >>> I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest >>> is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then >>> following just those groups. A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't >>> seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be >>> getting why I would care what all user groups are doing. >> >> There would be several benefits to having a single place for all >> Python user group news: >> >> 1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user >> groups. Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about >> establishing a federation of regional/international foundations >> to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more >> important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for >> those new foundations. > > Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal? We > could make this an aggregator for "community news". We would explicitly > label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g. > conference news, sprints, and so on. The python.org <http://python.org> news feed could > then be one of the first sources.
That makes a lot of sense. We could pull posts from the blog for the new sprint project Jesse is organizing and the pyfound blog (maybe limited to a specific tag, to avoid cross-posting everything).
Alex, what do you think?
Sure, if I understand correctly there is agreement to the idea of a new planet for "community news", and http://python.org/news/ would feed to it, as would any UG that wanted to.
I also pictured this "community news" feed going to planet.python.org <http://planet.python.org/> at some point, if it proved successful.
I would expect several of the news sources to *already* be aggregated on planet python, so we couldn't just pull in the feed wholesale. It sounds like there is consensus that a community news feed will have value on its own - but we should maintain them separately. Feeds in the community news planet can be added to the main planet individually. All the best, Michael
Feed madness!
:-)
Thanks, all for considering. And let me know if I can be of any assistance in implementing if you decide to move forward.
Alex
Doug
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-- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author — Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/admin
_______________________________________________ pydotorg-www mailing list pydotorg-www@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
-- http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/ http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (”BOGUS AGREEMENTS”) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Michael Foord wrote:
On 29/07/2010 17:04, Alex Clark wrote:
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Aahz wrote:
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then following just those groups. A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
There would be several benefits to having a single place for all Python user group news:
1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user groups. Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about establishing a federation of regional/international foundations to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for those new foundations.
Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal? We could make this an aggregator for "community news". We would explicitly label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g. conference news, sprints, and so on. The python.org news feed could then be one of the first sources.
That makes a lot of sense. We could pull posts from the blog for the new sprint project Jesse is organizing and the pyfound blog (maybe limited to a specific tag, to avoid cross-posting everything).
Alex, what do you think?
Sure, if I understand correctly there is agreement to the idea of a new planet for "community news", and http://python.org/news/ would feed to it, as would any UG that wanted to.
I also pictured this "community news" feed going to planet.python.org at some point, if it proved successful.
I would expect several of the news sources to *already* be aggregated on planet python, so we couldn't just pull in the feed wholesale. It sounds like there is consensus that a community news feed will have value on its own - but we should maintain them separately.
I agree, let's plan to keep them separate for now and see how that goes. Doug
Feeds in the community news planet can be added to the main planet individually.
All the best,
Michael
Feed madness!
:-)
Thanks, all for considering. And let me know if I can be of any assistance in implementing if you decide to move forward.
Alex
Doug
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-- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author — Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/admin
_______________________________________________ pydotorg-www mailing list pydotorg-www@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
-- http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/ http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog
READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (”BOGUS AGREEMENTS”) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann@gmail.com>wrote:
On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Aahz wrote:
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then following just those groups. A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
There would be several benefits to having a single place for all Python user group news:
1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user groups. Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about establishing a federation of regional/international foundations to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for those new foundations.
Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal? We could make this an aggregator for "community news". We would explicitly label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g. conference news, sprints, and so on. The python.org news feed could then be one of the first sources.
That makes a lot of sense. We could pull posts from the blog for the new sprint project Jesse is organizing and the pyfound blog (maybe limited to a specific tag, to avoid cross-posting everything).
Alex, what do you think?
Sure, if I understand correctly there is agreement to the idea of a new planet for "community news", and http://python.org/news/ would feed to it, as would any UG that wanted to. I also pictured this "community news" feed going to planet.python.org at some point, if it proved successful. Feed madness! :-) Thanks, all for considering. And let me know if I can be of any assistance in implementing if you decide to move forward. Alex
Doug
_______________________________________________ pydotorg-www mailing list pydotorg-www@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
-- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author — Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/admin
participants (5)
-
Aahz -
Alex Clark -
Doug Hellmann -
Michael Foord -
Stephan Deibel