Does the main Python COC apply to pages on the wiki? If not, is there some approximate equivalent that all wiki editors are bound to comply with? I can't find anything specified. The page in question is one that has been the focus of some discussion already: https://wiki.python.org/moin/DocumentationTools The pdoc3 fork is technically legal, but is offensive in a number of ways: * The wiki entry (until I edited it just now) implied heavily that this was the sole fork worth considering * The documentation at https://pdoc3.github.io/pdoc/ deliberately and gratuitously sneaks swastikas into the content * The "What Users Are Saying" section may (unproven) be using quotes not from users of the software, which (if true) would be misrepresenting those people * The overall tone of the page tends towards the caustic and divisive. I'm not comfortable with the project in its current state, but am unsure what, if any, rules have been violated. Seeking advice. ChrisA
Hi Chris, the PSF CoC applies to the wiki as well, but I'm not sure I follow your comments regarding the page in question. This is the version of the page you edited: https://wiki.python.org/moin/DocumentationTools?action=recall&rev=41 It simply says that the package is a maintained fork. I could not find language which suggests that pdoc3 is better than the original and it's certainly not offensive in any way. Could you please clarify ? Thanks, -- Marc-Andre Lemburg Python Software Foundation http://www.python.org/psf/ http://www.malemburg.com/ On 04.05.2019 07:35, Chris Angelico wrote:
Does the main Python COC apply to pages on the wiki? If not, is there some approximate equivalent that all wiki editors are bound to comply with? I can't find anything specified.
The page in question is one that has been the focus of some discussion already: https://wiki.python.org/moin/DocumentationTools
The pdoc3 fork is technically legal, but is offensive in a number of ways: * The wiki entry (until I edited it just now) implied heavily that this was the sole fork worth considering * The documentation at https://pdoc3.github.io/pdoc/ deliberately and gratuitously sneaks swastikas into the content * The "What Users Are Saying" section may (unproven) be using quotes not from users of the software, which (if true) would be misrepresenting those people * The overall tone of the page tends towards the caustic and divisive.
I'm not comfortable with the project in its current state, but am unsure what, if any, rules have been violated. Seeking advice.
ChrisA _______________________________________________ pydotorg-www mailing list pydotorg-www@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 8:00 PM M.-A. Lemburg <mal@python.org> wrote:
Hi Chris,
the PSF CoC applies to the wiki as well, but I'm not sure I follow your comments regarding the page in question.
This is the version of the page you edited:
https://wiki.python.org/moin/DocumentationTools?action=recall&rev=41
It simply says that the package is a maintained fork. I could not find language which suggests that pdoc3 is better than the original and it's certainly not offensive in any way.
Is it true that pdoc is unmaintained? If so, *its* entry should say so, rather than having pdoc3 say that it is maintained (which implies "hey, use this one"). It's one of those hard-to-pin-down things, but the wording just felt a little too pushy and hostile. ChrisA
-----Original Message----- From: pydotorg-www <pydotorg-www-bounces+tritium- list=sdamon.com@python.org> On Behalf Of Chris Angelico Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2019 1:36 AM To: Public python.org Web Discussion List <pydotorg-www@python.org> Subject: [pydotorg-www] Code of Conduct for wiki usage?
Does the main Python COC apply to pages on the wiki? If not, is there some approximate equivalent that all wiki editors are bound to comply with? I can't find anything specified.
The page in question is one that has been the focus of some discussion already: https://wiki.python.org/moin/DocumentationTools
The pdoc3 fork is technically legal, but is offensive in a number of ways: * The wiki entry (until I edited it just now) implied heavily that this was the sole fork worth considering
I didn't see that in the previous revisions
* The documentation at https://pdoc3.github.io/pdoc/ deliberately and gratuitously sneaks swastikas into the content
I do not see any, and I'm looking for them
* The "What Users Are Saying" section may (unproven) be using quotes not from users of the software, which (if true) would be misrepresenting those people
I will bite my tongue on this allegation, but it suffices to say this does not hold much water for me in THIS email.
* The overall tone of the page tends towards the caustic and divisive.
Where you see caustic, I see tongue-in-cheek.
I'm not comfortable with the project in its current state, but am unsure what, if any, rules have been violated. Seeking advice.
The wiki entry didn't violate any rules. The page you linked is on a Microsoft/GitHub server, not a PSF one. Does the CoC apply to literally anyone anywhere that uses python, then? Isn't that a little extreme? I don't remember seeing that in the python license.
ChrisA _______________________________________________ pydotorg-www mailing list pydotorg-www@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:36 PM Alex Walters <tritium-list@sdamon.com> wrote:
* The documentation at https://pdoc3.github.io/pdoc/ deliberately and gratuitously sneaks swastikas into the content
I do not see any, and I'm looking for them
More info here: https://github.com/mitmproxy/pdoc/issues/182#issuecomment-489293609
* The "What Users Are Saying" section may (unproven) be using quotes not from users of the software, which (if true) would be misrepresenting those people
I will bite my tongue on this allegation, but it suffices to say this does not hold much water for me in THIS email.
What do you mean?
* The overall tone of the page tends towards the caustic and divisive.
Where you see caustic, I see tongue-in-cheek.
Perhaps. If that were the only complaint, I wouldn't care.
I'm not comfortable with the project in its current state, but am unsure what, if any, rules have been violated. Seeking advice.
The wiki entry didn't violate any rules. The page you linked is on a Microsoft/GitHub server, not a PSF one. Does the CoC apply to literally anyone anywhere that uses python, then? Isn't that a little extreme? I don't remember seeing that in the python license.
I'm more thinking along the lines of "does the Python wiki want to encourage this by linking to it", since the CoC does (confirmed by M-A L) apply to the wiki itself. We can't take down the page, but if it is offensive, we can choose to de-list it on the wiki. My apologies, I should have been clearer on that point. But if you feel that it's not a problem, then fine. ChrisA
-----Original Message----- From: pydotorg-www <pydotorg-www-bounces+tritium- list=sdamon.com@python.org> On Behalf Of Chris Angelico Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2019 8:46 AM To: Public python.org Web Discussion List <pydotorg-www@python.org> Subject: Re: [pydotorg-www] Code of Conduct for wiki usage?
On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:36 PM Alex Walters <tritium-list@sdamon.com> wrote:
* The documentation at https://pdoc3.github.io/pdoc/ deliberately and gratuitously sneaks swastikas into the content
I do not see any, and I'm looking for them
More info here:
https://github.com/mitmproxy/pdoc/issues/182#issuecomment-489293609
With this added context, I think I understand where you are coming from a lot more.
* The "What Users Are Saying" section may (unproven) be using quotes not from users of the software, which (if true) would be misrepresenting those people
I will bite my tongue on this allegation, but it suffices to say this does not hold much water for me in THIS email.
What do you mean?
... consider this part retracted with the additional context you provided. On it's face it looked like you might have been misrepresenting the project author, but that is unlikely given the context. I apologize.
* The overall tone of the page tends towards the caustic and divisive.
Where you see caustic, I see tongue-in-cheek.
Perhaps. If that were the only complaint, I wouldn't care.
I'm not comfortable with the project in its current state, but am unsure what, if any, rules have been violated. Seeking advice.
The wiki entry didn't violate any rules. The page you linked is on a Microsoft/GitHub server, not a PSF one. Does the CoC apply to literally anyone anywhere that uses python, then? Isn't that a little extreme? I don't remember seeing that in the python license.
I'm more thinking along the lines of "does the Python wiki want to encourage this by linking to it", since the CoC does (confirmed by M-A L) apply to the wiki itself. We can't take down the page, but if it is offensive, we can choose to de-list it on the wiki. My apologies, I should have been clearer on that point.
But if you feel that it's not a problem, then fine.
I actually do see this as a sticky issue. The python community code of conduct is fairly vague. The Contributor Code of Conduct is fairly explicit, however, if this were a criminal proceeding... I don't think the evidence exists to say that this is an obvious breach of either CoC. It looks like a carefully constructed troll. That in itself would be enough to call it a CoC violation if the trolling happened on PSF infrastructure, or a PSF controlled github repo. The page linked from the wiki includes symbols some find offensive, but lacks context of intent - which makes me think the user in question is a troll. The link you posted which provided additional context shows the user is a troll. I kind of want to remove the link, but I don't know if it qualifies as a CoC violation by the wording of either CoC.
ChrisA _______________________________________________ pydotorg-www mailing list pydotorg-www@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 11:05 PM Alex Walters <tritium-list@sdamon.com> wrote:
I actually do see this as a sticky issue. The python community code of conduct is fairly vague. The Contributor Code of Conduct is fairly explicit, however, if this were a criminal proceeding... I don't think the evidence exists to say that this is an obvious breach of either CoC. It looks like a carefully constructed troll. That in itself would be enough to call it a CoC violation if the trolling happened on PSF infrastructure, or a PSF controlled github repo. The page linked from the wiki includes symbols some find offensive, but lacks context of intent - which makes me think the user in question is a troll. The link you posted which provided additional context shows the user is a troll.
I kind of want to remove the link, but I don't know if it qualifies as a CoC violation by the wording of either CoC.
Yeah, and a CoC *should* be vague, because otherwise it just opens up other forms of trolling (of the schoolchild level, "I'm not TECHNICALLY breaking the rules..."). BTW, regarding the older project being unmaintained: it appears to have gained a new maintainer just in the last day or so. If that's the case, the original justification for attempting to take over the project would not apply, and pdoc3 should be treated as a fork over technical decisions instead (see the original post in the linked GitHub issue, where he complains about certain design decisions). Not sure if that changes anything though. ChrisA
-----Original Message----- From: pydotorg-www <pydotorg-www-bounces+tritium- list=sdamon.com@python.org> On Behalf Of Chris Angelico Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2019 9:14 AM To: Public python.org Web Discussion List <pydotorg-www@python.org> Subject: Re: [pydotorg-www] Code of Conduct for wiki usage?
On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 11:05 PM Alex Walters <tritium-list@sdamon.com> wrote:
I actually do see this as a sticky issue. The python community code of conduct is fairly vague. The Contributor Code of Conduct is fairly explicit, however, if this were a criminal proceeding... I don't think
evidence exists to say that this is an obvious breach of either CoC. It looks like a carefully constructed troll. That in itself would be enough to call it a CoC violation if the trolling happened on PSF infrastructure, or a PSF controlled github repo. The page linked from the wiki includes symbols some find offensive, but lacks context of intent - which makes me think
the the
user in question is a troll. The link you posted which provided additional context shows the user is a troll.
I kind of want to remove the link, but I don't know if it qualifies as a CoC violation by the wording of either CoC.
Yeah, and a CoC *should* be vague, because otherwise it just opens up other forms of trolling (of the schoolchild level, "I'm not TECHNICALLY breaking the rules...").
BTW, regarding the older project being unmaintained: it appears to have gained a new maintainer just in the last day or so. If that's the case, the original justification for attempting to take over the project would not apply, and pdoc3 should be treated as a fork over technical decisions instead (see the original post in the linked GitHub issue, where he complains about certain design decisions). Not sure if that changes anything though.
I don't think that changes anything other than the fork having stale marketing copy. For the CoC issue, and if it does or does not violate the CoC, I think you should fire this off to psf@python.org. This is where I don't like intentionally vague guidelines. Yes, they stop schoolkid rule lawyering, but it does mean we depend on adjudicators quite a bit.
ChrisA _______________________________________________ pydotorg-www mailing list pydotorg-www@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
For the CoC issue, and if it does or does not violate the CoC, I think you should fire this off to psf@python.org. This is where I don't like intentionally vague guidelines. Yes, they stop schoolkid rule lawyering, but it does mean we depend on adjudicators quite a bit.
There's never been anything easy about preventing abuse, every approach has its problems - as a large number of problems have found out over the past few years as it seems to have gotten more popular to complain about bad actors (we always _used_ to say "don't feed the trolls", I think it's become more recognized that approach is not really sufficient). in any case, if we believe wiki contributions are covered by the CoC I believe the wiki should say so explicitly. As Chris noted in starting this iteration of the thread, it doesn't. The front page doesn't, the editing guidelines has some bullets but doesn't reference the CoC by name. Editors ought to be told... Also while I agree a CoC should not be too specific, I really think this one is too non-specific, as it doesn't say you have to follow it. "When you're working with members of the community, we encourage you to follow these guidelines" That's a PSF matter, of course, but just sayin'....
pdoc3 maintainer here. Appreciate the chance to defend my position. While I like to think the Python community benefits from my fork of the pdoc project (I likely wouldn't have put such effort into it otherwise!), I can't convincingly claim the project's website or its light-hearted author are wholly idiot-proof. 😅 I have read PSF's Python Community Code of Conduct and can't find a single angle upon which my activity, either within work on the project or in my editing of the wiki, appear to breach it. Neither am I a purposeful troll, for the most part anyway. Time will reveal for sure, but as of yet, I honestly believe the original project to be abandoned. New bugs are left not responded to; the two open pull requests—seeing no other activity, I assume that's what ChrisA referred to as "appears to have gained a new maintainer"?—I can only look forward to seeing reviewed someday. Sadly, the approved pdoc stewards just aren't giving due attention to the awesome ideas that this project promotes. Pdoc3 fork is now better in just about all objective technical and usability measures. Attempts at rebuttal at one's own peril. Regarding swastika concerns, I assure it's purely a matter of misinterpretation. The swastikas present in the project website footer are *not* Nazi symbolism in either shape nor spirit! They are, in fact, Buddhist swastikas, put there as small lucky charms. (So far, they seem to work.) With reference to Nazism occupying mere 15% of the relevant Wikipedia article, and with 卐 a current letter in at least five world alphabets, I'd expect more tact and presumption of innocence before carelessly throwing around libelous implications. For the above reasons, I believe listing pdoc3 as a useful documentation generator on Python Wiki is justified. Hope you all can find reason to agree. Thank you. ️❤️☸️
participants (5)
-
Alex Walters -
Chris Angelico -
Kernc -
M.-A. Lemburg -
Mats Wichmann