Summary ============================================================ As part of my contribution to this stage of the Python.org project I've volunteered to start compiling use cases. Before I can do this, I need to compile *user-profiles*. In other words *who* comes to Python.org (or who *should* come, even if they aren't now) and *why* do they visit. Mailing List Brainstorming ============================================================ There are a lot of ways to put together lists like this. Market research, competitive review, internal brainstorming, etc. This is a call for *internal brainstorming*. **There are no wrong ideas in a brainstorming session.** I'd rather not debate specific user profiles in this thread. What I want is the broadest possible collection of ideas that I can then add to my own lists and collect into a cohesive draft of base profiles. Examples ============================================================ Here are a couple examples that might kick start your own ideas/descriptions: Pythonista under Pointed Haired Boss ------------------------------------------------------------ Already committed Python coder needs to convince senior IT or upper management why Python makes sense for their organization. Looking for information on Python.org that can help make her case. Uncommitted Researcher ------------------------------------------------------------ User looking to pick amongst the current crop of Python peer level languages. May have a specific or general need. Wants to compare LanguageX to Python or may simply be looking for that final confirmation that Python is the best option for their needs. Greybeard Switcher ------------------------------------------------------------ Expert programmers switching to Python (reasons for switching?)... wants a high level, just the facts ma'am summary so that he/she can make own decision or jump start learning. Coerced Coed ------------------------------------------------------------ Students that are required to learn Python as part of a course. Looking for...? What I'd like you to do ============================================================ If you want to contribute, please reply to this thread with a user profile (and brief description if you want). Short and sweet is fine. Duplicates are fine. Variations on a theme or on another person's idea are fine. What I'll do with this information ============================================================ I'll be working to identify common aspects to the user descriptions (experience, commitment, relationship to Python community, needs, etc.). This will become part of the draft report as detailed in Richard's existing plan. -Ethan Ethan Schoonover es@ethanschoonover.com +1-206-569-5463 http://ethanschoonover.com
Here is who I think are the users of python.org (not restricted to www.python.org) Python Windows User ------------------- Wants to download the Python MSI file, in order to install it on her workstation or laptop. Python Developer Reading Documentation -------------------------------------- Developer needs to find out how some API works. Python Developer Reporting a Bug -------------------------------- Goes to bugs.python.org, fills out form; later follows-up. Python Developer Releasing a Package ------------------------------------ Goes to pypi.python.org, and uploads file. 50% chance that no webbrowser is involved (I could find out more correct statistics if desired). Python Developer Looking for Some Package ----------------------------------------- Browses list of PyPI hits, obtained from Google or local search, then downloads respective module. Python Developer Installing Some Known Package ---------------------------------------------- Often not through a web browser, but through easy_install, pip, zc.buildout, and so on. Python Core Contributor ----------------------- Not sure whether I should list their tasks in separate profiles; I think many of them: - use the version control system (svn/hg) - use the bug tracker - look at the buildbot results Some also: - have their build slave connect to the buildbot master - upload releases and/or documentation Mailing List Member ------------------- Subscribe to some MailMan list, and then send and receive postings to the list. Get reminded of list membership on Happy MailMan Day. Job Hunter ---------- Reads job postings Head Hunter ----------- Submits job postings. Website Contributor ------------------- Again, there are several channels on which people contribute, including - sending their blog feeds for integration into the planet - posting stuff to the wiki - proposing error corrections on the web pages, primarily for the Python documentation. HTH, Martin
On 03/05/2010 23:52, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
[snip...] Python Developer Looking for Some Package -----------------------------------------
Browses list of PyPI hits, obtained from Google or local search, then downloads respective module.
More and more it seems like developers are putting their documentation on PyPI (either through the documentation hosting system or on the PyPI page itself). I've often found myself on PyPI reading *about* a package. Michael -- http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/ http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (”BOGUS AGREEMENTS”) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 15:52, "Martin v. Löwis" <martin@v.loewis.de> wrote:
Here is who I think are the users of python.org (not restricted to www.python.org)
That's a good point and worth reiterating: many of the user groups that we want to target may not be visiting Python.org yet (or may only make use of a subset of it): - Users that hang out in Python sub-communities, such as on http://www.reddit.com/r/python - Users of programming specific sites such as http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/python - Developers jumping straight to PyPI via Google results So as Martin and Michael just did, it's great to mention these users in their current context as well.
On Mon, May 03, 2010, Ethan Schoonover wrote:
If you want to contribute, please reply to this thread with a user profile (and brief description if you want). Short and sweet is fine. Duplicates are fine. Variations on a theme or on another person's idea are fine.
Pointy-haired boss looking for info (as opposed to previously-mentioned subordinate) Journalist researching Python (either in its own right or as part of e.g. the SEC story) New Pythonista looking for others * Mailing lists * User groups * Conferences Trying to run an application written in Python but not interested in Python itself * Needing a specific version to get package running -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code." --Bill Harlan
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 17:52, Aahz <aahz@pythoncraft.com> wrote:
Trying to run an application written in Python but not interested in Python itself
That's a great entry point to Python exposure I hadn't thought of and which I have to imagine can have a huge impact on initial pos/neg experience with Python. First impressions, etc. Keep 'em coming...
On Mon, May 03, 2010, Ethan Schoonover wrote:
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 17:52, Aahz <aahz@pythoncraft.com> wrote:
Trying to run an application written in Python but not interested in Python itself
That's a great entry point to Python exposure I hadn't thought of and which I have to imagine can have a huge impact on initial pos/neg experience with Python. First impressions, etc.
Related: user trying to learn Python as a macro/embedded language (e.g. for vim or Paint Shop Pro). -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code." --Bill Harlan
Aahz wrote:
On Mon, May 03, 2010, Ethan Schoonover wrote:
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 17:52, Aahz <aahz@pythoncraft.com> wrote:
Trying to run an application written in Python but not interested in Python itself That's a great entry point to Python exposure I hadn't thought of and which I have to imagine can have a huge impact on initial pos/neg experience with Python. First impressions, etc.
Related: user trying to learn Python as a macro/embedded language (e.g. for vim or Paint Shop Pro).
Which reminds me: there are whole classes of users who come to Python because it's the embedded scripting language in their application. Everything from SPSS through Blender and Maya to ARC geo now use Python as their scripting language of choice. These people surely need help too (and maybe the commercial vendors would like to help?) Not to mention the many users who learn Python to use Django to develop web sites. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010 http://pycon.blip.tv/ Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ UPCOMING EVENTS: http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/
On 04/05/2010 11:49, Steve Holden wrote:
Aahz wrote:
On Mon, May 03, 2010, Ethan Schoonover wrote:
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 17:52, Aahz<aahz@pythoncraft.com> wrote:
Trying to run an application written in Python but not interested in Python itself
That's a great entry point to Python exposure I hadn't thought of and which I have to imagine can have a huge impact on initial pos/neg experience with Python. First impressions, etc.
Related: user trying to learn Python as a macro/embedded language (e.g. for vim or Paint Shop Pro).
Which reminds me: there are whole classes of users who come to Python because it's the embedded scripting language in their application. Everything from SPSS through Blender and Maya to ARC geo now use Python as their scripting language of choice. These people surely need help too (and maybe the commercial vendors would like to help?)
There's another interesting class of Python users - who may end up on the Python website. Java and C# developers who are using IronPython and Jython to embed in *their* applications as scripting languages. (Plus C/C++ developers who embed CPython.) All the best, Michael
Not to mention the many users who learn Python to use Django to develop web sites.
regards Steve
-- http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/ http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (”BOGUS AGREEMENTS”) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
I would add also - plain internet folks who by a chance stumbled upon python.org website. Or not by a chance. Gamers, who want to make custom level and heard that their game engine uses Python. Game developers, who would like to start using Python (or switching from Lua) as scripting language for their engines. Users of Google API that learn Python to automate things or write robots for Google Wave. Observers that passively watch Python development. Stackless, PyPy users/developers that need to sync with core. Scientists who look at Python as FORTRAN replacement and use SciPy, .. ahem.. and many others scientific tools written in Python. C folks, who do not know that Python can speed up the development process when being the primary language for integrating modules. Also Python users, who do not know they were using Python, but got some related error message. Ubuntu users who have heard that Ubuntu promotes usage of Python. Ubuntu developers, who develop Launchpad and other Canonical services. Ubuntu/Debian/Haiku/other developers, who need to package Python apps for their users. Teachers, who look into Python for their introductory courses into Computer Science after MIT. Python users reporting bugs. Python developers trying to find their way around bugs, subscribe to important bugs, compile a list of personal bugs that would be nice to be done some day, also looking for ways to confirm/fix bugs. Developers of Python applications, who would like to monitor upstream Python bugs that cause problems with their apps. Developers/admins who look into Python to hack Trac. Developers who are trying to understand metaclasses to get the idea how Trac core works. Developers, who look for instructions how to debug Python code to understand how Trac handles requests. Developers, who look for Python IDE. People looking for information about bugs, searching web site, bug tracker, wiki, asking help in IRC, looking for searchable Google Groups archive of discussions and trolling pydotorg-www mailing list. =) Also Google search users. Also people interested in real pythons and snakes. People looking for phyton. A lot of people looking for tutorial more than documentation - http://www.python.org/webstats/usage_201005.html#TOPSEARCH - also for Guido van Rossum and PEP8. BTW, Google Wave is more suited for such kind of compilations/collaborations - it even has default Brainstorming template. -- anatoly t.
One more - developers who look how to integrate services/tools used by python.org into their own workflow. For obvious reason - they are already familiar with these tools or like how they work. For example, OpenID integration for Roundup. -- anatoly t.
Just a follow up note to say thanks to everyone for the excellent feedback yesterday. If anyone has more ideas, please continue to add to this thread. I'm in the process of collating the brainstorming into a more structured review of visitor types and will have further questions this week. Best, Ethan Ethan Schoonover es@ethanschoonover.com +1-206-569-5463 http://ethanschoonover.com
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Ethan Schoonover <es@ethanschoonover.com> wrote:
Just a follow up note to say thanks to everyone for the excellent feedback yesterday. If anyone has more ideas, please continue to add to this thread. I'm in the process of collating the brainstorming into a more structured review of visitor types and will have further questions this week.
Seems like we've completely left out social and professional aspect. Besides developers, scientists and students, python.org is visited by - designers, government folks, consultants, home users, engineers, media folks, people from financial sphere, network administrators, lawyers, military professions, office workers. Social are gender - men and women. Age - 10 to 70 (it would be actually interesting to read an interview with the oldest Python user). Bounce ratio - how many users find site interesting. There 2 kind of site users - returning and new. Majority of new site users don't know anything about p.o site at all. However, the majority of site users are returning. Age groups can be analyzed also by view and experience. I suppose that in age group of 30 and up there are usually people with vast development experience and conservative views. In group under 30 there are people who monitor what's going on in Internet and know recent trends. Group under 23 are active Internet users who know or have accounts in about almost every modern Internet service, but do not have development experience to see how these services works. There is a strong correlation between age and amount of new things people aware of/tried. It is because more experienced developers are more busy with work, they often have children and a lot of errands to run, hence almost no time. So, 90% of Python Developers category are also "people with no time". =) -- anatoly t.
Anatoly, thanks for the continued contribution on this. FWIW I will also be including some standard demographic/psychographic categories where they seem appropriate. When you are speaking of age, sex and other demographic breakdowns, I'm curious if there have been any actual studies of demographics on the site? Or is this more anecdotal? Not to discount anecdote... it may end up being our best internal data available (for better or worse). Also, regarding bounce rate, is this based on data or estimate? Nothing wrong with estimates as a first pass, but if there some data hiding around somewhere, I'm interested to uncover it as well. Thanks again, Ethan Ethan Schoonover es@ethanschoonover.com +1-206-569-5463 http://ethanschoonover.com On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 00:33, anatoly techtonik <techtonik@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Ethan Schoonover <es@ethanschoonover.com> wrote:
Just a follow up note to say thanks to everyone for the excellent feedback yesterday. If anyone has more ideas, please continue to add to this thread. I'm in the process of collating the brainstorming into a more structured review of visitor types and will have further questions this week.
Seems like we've completely left out social and professional aspect. Besides developers, scientists and students, python.org is visited by - designers, government folks, consultants, home users, engineers, media folks, people from financial sphere, network administrators, lawyers, military professions, office workers.
Social are gender - men and women. Age - 10 to 70 (it would be actually interesting to read an interview with the oldest Python user).
Bounce ratio - how many users find site interesting. There 2 kind of site users - returning and new. Majority of new site users don't know anything about p.o site at all. However, the majority of site users are returning.
Age groups can be analyzed also by view and experience. I suppose that in age group of 30 and up there are usually people with vast development experience and conservative views. In group under 30 there are people who monitor what's going on in Internet and know recent trends. Group under 23 are active Internet users who know or have accounts in about almost every modern Internet service, but do not have development experience to see how these services works. There is a strong correlation between age and amount of new things people aware of/tried. It is because more experienced developers are more busy with work, they often have children and a lot of errands to run, hence almost no time. So, 90% of Python Developers category are also "people with no time". =) -- anatoly t.
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:19 PM, Ethan Schoonover <es@ethanschoonover.com> wrote:
When you are speaking of age, sex and other demographic breakdowns, I'm curious if there have been any actual studies of demographics on the site? Or is this more anecdotal? Not to discount anecdote... it may end up being our best internal data available (for better or worse).
It is brainstorming, so these are just assumptions. I doubt it is possible to gather correct data or validate it, because most people on Internet have no reasons to be honest. I would say it is quite the opposite. In any case people like thе man who listens more rather than the one that makes their autopsy. =) I mean that processing direct feedback from users about what they dislike about Python community would be more effective than trying to guess that. But it is still fun to think about something not that technical.
Also, regarding bounce rate, is this based on data or estimate? Nothing wrong with estimates as a first pass, but if there some data hiding around somewhere, I'm interested to uncover it as well.
We don't have Google Analytics counters, so it is more like a reason to make a bet for some beer. -- anatoly t.
And also "users" who learn Python in advance to win second Cold War. https://software.sandia.gov/trac/pyutilib http://www.google.com/search?q=LHC+python -- anatoly t.
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 13:29, anatoly techtonik <techtonik@gmail.com> wrote:
We don't have Google Analytics counters, so it is more like a reason to make a bet for some beer.
I'm good for a pint when we meet up... ;) Good stuff Anatoly, I'm compiling everything now. Thanks again. -e Ethan Schoonover es@ethanschoonover.com +1-206-569-5463 http://ethanschoonover.com
participants (6)
-
"Martin v. Löwis" -
Aahz -
anatoly techtonik -
Ethan Schoonover -
Michael Foord -
Steve Holden