PyPA, Governance and Communication
Kicking off a thread on the mailman: So basically then, the immediate questions are:
So basically then, the immediate questions are:
A. Does all of the above sound reasonable to everyone involved here? B. Do we want to just use a email chain with CCs on everyone as a temporary place for discussion for now until the above questions get answered, then move any subsequent stuff to whatever the answer is? C. Are their additional people we should include? (I’ve CC’d everyone who is a maintainer of a PyPA project, since they’re the people this really effects, but if there’s some other important person to add then let’s do it). D. If Yes to the above, who wants to be the BDFRN on the governance question?
I think the consensus we have so far is that A is Yes, for B we created this mailman list (though the CCs are fine too) and no one has particularly enthusiastically volunteered for D. Consolidating the "half volunteered" votes here: 1. Donald Stufft 2. Paul Moore 3. Thea Flowers I have not included in this semi-summary Nick's proposal since it is more complicated and involves getting a grant. I personally think the grant thing is a useful idea but it's probably a good idea to have a BDFN independent of that who can be the final arbiter in this case. I don't know all the PyPA people as well as probably some of you, but Donald seems like a pretty natural choice to me for this.
Hey all.
You’re getting this email because you’re listed as a maintainer on one of the projects that fall under the PyPA umbrella and you’re not someone that I know is now in-active and thus no longer really interested in this sorts of discussions. I’ve tried to default to open here rather than closed, so if you don’t feel particularly like you care about this, or you’re sort of a one off contributor that don’t want to really be involved in the larger PyPA and you want to focus on just your one project, then feel free to ignore this email!
For everyone else, one of the things that I feel like came out of the packaging mini summit (and some subsequent discussion) is that we don’t really have very strong communication channels both between projects, and for projects to the world (and possibly even project to users?). This has generally been because PyPA has practically zero rules or infrastructure besides an org on Github and mandating the CoC, so we’ve never had anything that could function as that, and each individual project has been left otherwise entirely up to their own devices. This has lead to confusion, and a lack of a real good way to coordinate amongst ourselves.
So ultimately we have a few underlying questions to ask ourselves here:
1. Do we want to introduce more governance to the PyPA? 2. If we’re going to add more governance, how much do we want and what does that governance look like? 3. What sort of communication channels do we want to add, promote, or even retire?
So part of the problem with the fact we have no process, is that we have no process for deciding these questions. When I did the CoC thing, I just emailed all of the “member” projects, and asked if they had any opposition, nobody did so we made that a rule going forward. This is a little trickier because it has more room for having opinions about the specific shape the answers to each of those questions take and we’ve added more projects/people since then, so I’m going to assume that we’re unlikely to get a fully unanimous agreement on all of the details.
We’ve been using the PEP process for similar style questions (unlikely to get fully unanimous etc), but I don’t think that the actual PEP process itself is the right tool here, because in terms of how we structure the PyPA, we don’t really need or want to care about what other random people think about how we organize ourselves.
So here’s what I think we should do:
We pick someone to act as a Benevolent Dictator For Right Now (BDFRN), whose sole charter is to act as the final decision maker for the above questions. Once those questions have been answered, the BDFRN role is over, and whatever (if any) new process takes over— or if we elect not to have anything new, then we just end the discussion there and continue as we are.
The BDFRN will come up with a proposal first for answering the governance question, what, if any, governance we want to have and what shape that takes. This will effectively just be a “mini PEP” without any of the structure, just going through what that proposal is, how we make further decisions, etc etc. This will ideally be done with discussion amongst the people here (everyone I’ve CC’d is a maintainer of a PyPA project), and once the BDFRN has decided their proposal is ready, they’ll just call for a vote with some time limit 7 days?), and everyone involved here can +1, -1, +0, -0, or abstain (with no reply being abstain). Basically I see it working where if we get mostly +1/0 with no -1 and little to no -0 then the BDFRN will declare their proposal ratified, and we’ll switch to using whatever it is.
If we don’t get a rough consensus, they’ll amend the proposal or possibly ultimately decide to keep the status quo if there isn’t governance that we want and can agree on.
If that process does generate some level of governance with a decision making process, then I’d suggest we leave (3) from above as an open question for that new thing to decide. It’ll be a good first issue I think, and will give us a chance to test it, and possibly make tweaks to the system while it’s still new and fresh.
If that process does not generate any level of governance with a decision making process, then I’d suggest we re-use the same process from above, except for communication channels. This could have a different BDFRN, or the same it doesn’t really matter.
So basically then, the immediate questions are:
A. Does all of the above sound reasonable to everyone involved here? B. Do we want to just use a email chain with CCs on everyone as a temporary place for discussion for now until the above questions get answered, then move any subsequent stuff to whatever the answer is? C. Are their additional people we should include? (I’ve CC’d everyone who is a maintainer of a PyPA project, since they’re the people this really effects, but if there’s some other important person to add then let’s do it). D. If Yes to the above, who wants to be the BDFRN on the governance question?
My answers are:
A: Yes B: Yes C: Maybe? I added everyone I could remember who were currently active maintainers, however there were a few folks (mentioned below) that I couldn’t locate email addresses for. D: Don’t care, but am happy to do it if nobody else feels strongly about being it.
People I couldn’t locate email addresses for:
pipenv: - https://github.com/erinxocon - https://github.com/vphilippon
setuptools: - https://github.com/idlesign <https://github.com/idlesign>
As an aside, there are way more people in this list then there was when we added the CoC, and I think that’s awesome :D
- Donald
On 21 May 2018 at 18:46, Paul G <paul@ganssle.io> wrote:
So basically then, the immediate questions are:
A. Does all of the above sound reasonable to everyone involved here? B. Do we want to just use a email chain with CCs on everyone as a temporary place for discussion for now until the above questions get answered, then move any subsequent stuff to whatever the answer is? C. Are their additional people we should include? (I’ve CC’d everyone who is a maintainer of a PyPA project, since they’re the people this really effects, but if there’s some other important person to add then let’s do it). D. If Yes to the above, who wants to be the BDFRN on the governance question?
I think the consensus we have so far is that A is Yes, for B we created this mailman list (though the CCs are fine too) and no one has particularly enthusiastically volunteered for D. Consolidating the "half volunteered" votes here:
1. Donald Stufft 2. Paul Moore 3. Thea Flowers
I should probably withdraw my name from that, as on reflection I simply don't have the time. Sorry. Paul
I would be happy to help, but recently volunteered for a big undertaking so I would prefer someone else take charge. Donald? :) On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 3:17 PM Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
So basically then, the immediate questions are:
A. Does all of the above sound reasonable to everyone involved here? B. Do we want to just use a email chain with CCs on everyone as a temporary place for discussion for now until the above questions get answered, then move any subsequent stuff to whatever the answer is? C. Are their additional people we should include? (I’ve CC’d everyone who is a maintainer of a PyPA project, since they’re the people this really effects, but if there’s some other important person to add then let’s do it). D. If Yes to the above, who wants to be the BDFRN on the governance question?
I think the consensus we have so far is that A is Yes, for B we created
On 21 May 2018 at 18:46, Paul G <paul@ganssle.io> wrote: this mailman list (though the CCs are fine too) and no one has particularly enthusiastically volunteered for D. Consolidating the "half volunteered" votes here:
1. Donald Stufft 2. Paul Moore 3. Thea Flowers
I should probably withdraw my name from that, as on reflection I simply don't have the time. Sorry.
Paul _______________________________________________ PyPA-Committers mailing list pypa-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/pypa-committers.python.org/
I’d like to nominate Dustin Ingram for the BDFRN role if Dustin is up for it. On May 21, 2018 at 6:20:42 PM, Thea Flowers via PyPA-Committers ( pypa-committers@python.org) wrote:
I would be happy to help, but recently volunteered for a big undertaking so I would prefer someone else take charge.
Donald? :)
On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 3:17 PM Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
So basically then, the immediate questions are:
A. Does all of the above sound reasonable to everyone involved here? B. Do we want to just use a email chain with CCs on everyone as a temporary place for discussion for now until the above questions get answered, then move any subsequent stuff to whatever the answer is? C. Are their additional people we should include? (I’ve CC’d everyone who is a maintainer of a PyPA project, since they’re the people this really effects, but if there’s some other important person to add then let’s do it). D. If Yes to the above, who wants to be the BDFRN on the governance question?
I think the consensus we have so far is that A is Yes, for B we created
On 21 May 2018 at 18:46, Paul G <paul@ganssle.io> wrote: this mailman list (though the CCs are fine too) and no one has particularly enthusiastically volunteered for D. Consolidating the "half volunteered" votes here:
1. Donald Stufft 2. Paul Moore 3. Thea Flowers
I should probably withdraw my name from that, as on reflection I simply don't have the time. Sorry.
Paul _______________________________________________ PyPA-Committers mailing list pypa-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/pypa-committers.python.org/
_______________________________________________ PyPA-Committers mailing list pypa-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/pypa-committers.python.org/
Hi all,
I’d like to nominate Dustin Ingram for the BDFRN role if Dustin is up for it.
Indeed, I'm up for it. I won't claim to have the same breadth of experience as Donald when it comes to these things, but I likely have a bit more bandwidth to spare than he does. I also can't say I know all of you personally, but I believe I know the majority of you, and I definitely know and understand each of your projects (either as a contributor, or as an observer). I believe I can fulfill the duties of a "BDFRN" objectively and without bias. D. On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Ernest W. Durbin III <ewdurbin@gmail.com> wrote:
I’d like to nominate Dustin Ingram for the BDFRN role if Dustin is up for it.
On May 21, 2018 at 6:20:42 PM, Thea Flowers via PyPA-Committers (pypa-committers@python.org) wrote:
I would be happy to help, but recently volunteered for a big undertaking so I would prefer someone else take charge.
Donald? :)
On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 3:17 PM Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 21 May 2018 at 18:46, Paul G <paul@ganssle.io> wrote:
So basically then, the immediate questions are:
A. Does all of the above sound reasonable to everyone involved here? B. Do we want to just use a email chain with CCs on everyone as a temporary place for discussion for now until the above questions get answered, then move any subsequent stuff to whatever the answer is? C. Are their additional people we should include? (I’ve CC’d everyone who is a maintainer of a PyPA project, since they’re the people this really effects, but if there’s some other important person to add then let’s do it). D. If Yes to the above, who wants to be the BDFRN on the governance question?
I think the consensus we have so far is that A is Yes, for B we created this mailman list (though the CCs are fine too) and no one has particularly enthusiastically volunteered for D. Consolidating the "half volunteered" votes here:
1. Donald Stufft 2. Paul Moore 3. Thea Flowers
I should probably withdraw my name from that, as on reflection I simply don't have the time. Sorry.
Paul _______________________________________________ PyPA-Committers mailing list pypa-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/pypa-committers.python.org/
_______________________________________________ PyPA-Committers mailing list pypa-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/pypa-committers.python.org/
_______________________________________________ PyPA-Committers mailing list pypa-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/pypa-committers.python.org/
Dustin sounds like a great choice to me, with the added bonus that this is the least resigned-sounding offer to take up the job in the thread, so +1. On 05/22/2018 09:49 AM, Dustin Ingram wrote:
Hi all,
I’d like to nominate Dustin Ingram for the BDFRN role if Dustin is up for it.
Indeed, I'm up for it.
I won't claim to have the same breadth of experience as Donald when it comes to these things, but I likely have a bit more bandwidth to spare than he does.
I also can't say I know all of you personally, but I believe I know the majority of you, and I definitely know and understand each of your projects (either as a contributor, or as an observer).
I believe I can fulfill the duties of a "BDFRN" objectively and without bias.
D.
On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 4:53 PM, Ernest W. Durbin III <ewdurbin@gmail.com> wrote:
I’d like to nominate Dustin Ingram for the BDFRN role if Dustin is up for it.
On May 21, 2018 at 6:20:42 PM, Thea Flowers via PyPA-Committers (pypa-committers@python.org) wrote:
I would be happy to help, but recently volunteered for a big undertaking so I would prefer someone else take charge.
Donald? :)
On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 3:17 PM Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 21 May 2018 at 18:46, Paul G <paul@ganssle.io> wrote:
So basically then, the immediate questions are:
A. Does all of the above sound reasonable to everyone involved here? B. Do we want to just use a email chain with CCs on everyone as a temporary place for discussion for now until the above questions get answered, then move any subsequent stuff to whatever the answer is? C. Are their additional people we should include? (I’ve CC’d everyone who is a maintainer of a PyPA project, since they’re the people this really effects, but if there’s some other important person to add then let’s do it). D. If Yes to the above, who wants to be the BDFRN on the governance question?
I think the consensus we have so far is that A is Yes, for B we created this mailman list (though the CCs are fine too) and no one has particularly enthusiastically volunteered for D. Consolidating the "half volunteered" votes here:
1. Donald Stufft 2. Paul Moore 3. Thea Flowers
I should probably withdraw my name from that, as on reflection I simply don't have the time. Sorry.
Paul _______________________________________________ PyPA-Committers mailing list pypa-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/pypa-committers.python.org/
_______________________________________________ PyPA-Committers mailing list pypa-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/pypa-committers.python.org/
_______________________________________________ PyPA-Committers mailing list pypa-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/pypa-committers.python.org/
+1 On Tue, May 22, 2018, 6:56 AM Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 22 May 2018 at 14:54, Paul G <paul@ganssle.io> wrote:
Dustin sounds like a great choice to me, with the added bonus that this is the least resigned-sounding offer to take up the job in the thread, so +1.
+1 from me, too. Paul
Not that y'all need my approval but I'm also +1 for Dustin Sent from my phone with my typo-happy thumbs. Please excuse my brevity On Tue, May 22, 2018, 09:13 Thea Flowers via PyPA-Committers < pypa-committers@python.org> wrote:
+1
On Tue, May 22, 2018, 6:56 AM Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 22 May 2018 at 14:54, Paul G <paul@ganssle.io> wrote:
Dustin sounds like a great choice to me, with the added bonus that this is the least resigned-sounding offer to take up the job in the thread, so +1.
+1 from me, too. Paul
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On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 7:26 PM Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 22 May 2018 at 14:54, Paul G <paul@ganssle.io> wrote:
Dustin sounds like a great choice to me, with the added bonus that this is the least resigned-sounding offer to take up the job in the thread, so +1.
+1 from me, too. Paul
I'm +1 for Dustin from me too. :) -- Pradyun
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+1 for Dustin from me :) \o/ *Nicole Harris* Kabu Creative *Mobile:* + 44 (0) 7480 910 191 *E-mail:* n.harris@kabucreative.com http://kabucreative.com On 22 May 2018 at 17:21, Pradyun Gedam <pradyunsg@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 7:26 PM Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 22 May 2018 at 14:54, Paul G <paul@ganssle.io> wrote:
Dustin sounds like a great choice to me, with the added bonus that this is the least resigned-sounding offer to take up the job in the thread, so +1.
+1 from me, too. Paul
I'm +1 for Dustin from me too. :)
-- Pradyun
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On 22 May 2018 at 23:49, Dustin Ingram <di@python.org> wrote:
Hi all,
I’d like to nominate Dustin Ingram for the BDFRN role if Dustin is up for it.
Indeed, I'm up for it.
I won't claim to have the same breadth of experience as Donald when it comes to these things, but I likely have a bit more bandwidth to spare than he does.
If you're happy to take on the task, +1 from me - your exposure to the communication processes used in the MOSS grant will be an asset, and you're already used to working with ChangeSet, so I think getting them on board to help you with this should work out well :) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
Dustin Ingram wrote:
Indeed, I'm up for it.
I won't claim to have the same breadth of experience as Donald when it comes to these things, but I likely have a bit more bandwidth to spare than he does.
I also can't say I know all of you personally, but I believe I know the majority of you, and I definitely know and understand each of your projects (either as a contributor, or as an observer).
I believe I can fulfill the duties of a "BDFRN" objectively and without bias.
Turns out there was discussion happening here that I wasn't seeing, because apparently being added a list owner doesn't actually subscribe you! I am perfectly happy with Dustin acting as the BDFN, I think he'll do a great job at helping us get to some sort of rough consensus and figuring out what we replace our adhoc system with. With regards to the experience aspect, I don't particularly think it's important, the role of the BDFN is largely facilitating discussion and helping to get us to achieve rough consensus (e.g. saying No to stuff that obviously doesn't have buy-in from people, to let us focus on more popular things, etc). You don't need to be stepped in 10 years of packaging lore to do that (and in many ways, being newer is a benefit here, fresh set of eyes etc etc).
I don’t know Dustin personally (we’ve managed not to connect for various reasons somehow) but consensus seems to be settling on the least unwilling :) I’m happy to give a +1 on this, hopefully we can catch up sometime in the future -D Dan Ryan // pipenv maintainer gh: @techalchemy
On May 25, 2018, at 2:28 PM, donald@stufft.io wrote:
Dustin Ingram wrote:
Indeed, I'm up for it.
I won't claim to have the same breadth of experience as Donald when it comes to these things, but I likely have a bit more bandwidth to spare than he does.
I also can't say I know all of you personally, but I believe I know the majority of you, and I definitely know and understand each of your projects (either as a contributor, or as an observer).
I believe I can fulfill the duties of a "BDFRN" objectively and without bias.
Turns out there was discussion happening here that I wasn't seeing, because apparently being added a list owner doesn't actually subscribe you!
I am perfectly happy with Dustin acting as the BDFN, I think he'll do a great job at helping us get to some sort of rough consensus and figuring out what we replace our adhoc system with.
With regards to the experience aspect, I don't particularly think it's important, the role of the BDFN is largely facilitating discussion and helping to get us to achieve rough consensus (e.g. saying No to stuff that obviously doesn't have buy-in from people, to let us focus on more popular things, etc). You don't need to be stepped in 10 years of packaging lore to do that (and in many ways, being newer is a benefit here, fresh set of eyes etc etc). _______________________________________________ PyPA-Committers mailing list pypa-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/pypa-committers.python.org/
I just joined this list and caught up. +1 from me for Dustin for Benevolent Dictator For Right Now (BDFRN). Thank you for volunteering, Dustin.
I'm also very supportive of DI. From meeting him and PyCon and seeing his work he is well fit for the job. I also thank him for offering. Cooper
So it seems that there has been no dissent in nominating Dustin Ingram as the BDFRN of the PyPA. Is this resolved then? Dustin Ingram will serve in the BDFRN role as described:
We pick someone to act as a Benevolent Dictator For Right Now (BDFRN), whose sole charter is to act as the final decision maker for the above questions. Once those questions have been answered, the BDFRN role is over, and whatever (if any) new process takes over— or if we elect not to have anything new, then we just end the discussion there and continue as we are.
participants (13)
-
Cooper Ry Lees -
Dan Ryan -
donald＠stufft.io -
Dustin Ingram -
Ernest W. Durbin III -
Ian Stapleton Cordasco -
Nick Coghlan -
Nicole Harris -
Paul G -
Paul Moore -
Pradyun Gedam -
Sumana Harihareswara -
Thea Flowers