Dear PyPy folk, I had been a quiet supporter of your project for some years, but lately completely dropped off. I would like to state my reasons in hope that PyPy will not be completely forgotten and thus point a path forward, perhaps hypothetical, but one that I would very much like to see: #1 PyPy must track Python language versions (and CPython stdlib versions) You've released 7.3.8 with 3.8 support and I already use [Python language version] 3.9 in production and 3.10 in CI. (3.9 in prod only because some dependencies are missing a formal update, it will be 3.10 in no time) The components that run [Python language version] 3.8 in prod are a mix of obsolete, unmaintained, and those whose developers are too busy with other things, there's no chance those components would switch to PyPy. You've released 3.9 beta support and I'm running [CPython] 3.11.0a4. I can't use your great work. Ideally PyPy would track these in lock-step (released at the same time); an acceptable compromise may be a 3-month delay. In short: for me (and probably mots developers) PyPy remains an academic exercise. Thank you, Dima Tisnek P.S. My wish list: #2 Move to GitHub already. Your current repo setup makes it impossible for the majority to of developers to contribute. #3 Focus on one major feature, that is visible to the developers, and not old -- it could be, for example, typing or async/await, but probably not multithreading. The impact of your amazing work is proportional to the number of users. The average user is interested more in language usability and frist-class language features; performance comes second.
Hi Dima, On Wed, Feb 02, 2022 at 11:11:31AM +0900, Dima Tisnek wrote:
Most people do not track the latest Python. They use their vendor's Python, which may be a number of releases back, or even whatever legacy version their application is written for. For example, there are still people using Python 2.7 https://access.redhat.com/solutions/4455511 and the default version of Python that ships with RHEL 8 is changing from 3.6 to 3.8. Not everyone moves fast to the latest version of the language. For some people stability is more valuable than features. I'm sure that the PyPy devs would support 3.11 if they had the manpower. Did you think that they just hadn't noticed that CPython was up to 3.10 and 3.11 is in development?
#2 Move to GitHub already. Your current repo setup makes it impossible for the majority to of developers to contribute.
"Impossible"? Like you literally cannot get your head around a different repo than GitHub? How will you cope if your job requires you to learn new skills? Or even a new language?
performance comes second.
That's a strange thing to say to a Python interpreter whose reason for existence is to improve performance. -- Steve
As a long term user, I admit I do like the shiny new things - (type hints and f-strings ... bliss). But I actually think pypy's cadence is very promising. CPython releases are now yearly, but on the pypy side the 3.8 rc came out and 3.9 is in beta only 9 months after 3.7 was released. So kudos on that front! If that pace is sustained and CPython is caught up with it might actually mean you actually have to slow down ;-) On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 at 15:12, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
On 02. 02. 22 16:11, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
and the default version of Python that ships with RHEL 8 is changing from 3.6 to 3.8.
It isn't. The default version of Python that ships with RHEL 8 will always be 3.6. You can also install Python 3.8 and 3.9, but the version of Python that the system actually uses will always be 3.6. -- Miro Hrončok -- Phone: +420777974800 IRC: mhroncok
PyPy version is moving up version a lot faster than before. And Pypy 3.8 is mainstream in most development houses and enterprise. It seems P do not People rarely using latest python version But i agree on point that PyPy need to grow its userbase. Many of the people i talked with still think pypy CExt is still slow or incompatible with many C base Exts including Data Science stack. PyPy team needs to demystify those and bring more people in , Mirroring to Github is also a good idea , it can bring more pople and Stars (You know , most CTO choose tech stack base on github stars , not the actual usefulness) On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 10:42 PM Oliver Margetts <oliver.margetts@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 8:42 AM Dima Tisnek <dimaqq@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dima, On Wed, Feb 02, 2022 at 11:11:31AM +0900, Dima Tisnek wrote:
Most people do not track the latest Python. They use their vendor's Python, which may be a number of releases back, or even whatever legacy version their application is written for. For example, there are still people using Python 2.7 https://access.redhat.com/solutions/4455511 and the default version of Python that ships with RHEL 8 is changing from 3.6 to 3.8. Not everyone moves fast to the latest version of the language. For some people stability is more valuable than features. I'm sure that the PyPy devs would support 3.11 if they had the manpower. Did you think that they just hadn't noticed that CPython was up to 3.10 and 3.11 is in development?
#2 Move to GitHub already. Your current repo setup makes it impossible for the majority to of developers to contribute.
"Impossible"? Like you literally cannot get your head around a different repo than GitHub? How will you cope if your job requires you to learn new skills? Or even a new language?
performance comes second.
That's a strange thing to say to a Python interpreter whose reason for existence is to improve performance. -- Steve
As a long term user, I admit I do like the shiny new things - (type hints and f-strings ... bliss). But I actually think pypy's cadence is very promising. CPython releases are now yearly, but on the pypy side the 3.8 rc came out and 3.9 is in beta only 9 months after 3.7 was released. So kudos on that front! If that pace is sustained and CPython is caught up with it might actually mean you actually have to slow down ;-) On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 at 15:12, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
On 02. 02. 22 16:11, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
and the default version of Python that ships with RHEL 8 is changing from 3.6 to 3.8.
It isn't. The default version of Python that ships with RHEL 8 will always be 3.6. You can also install Python 3.8 and 3.9, but the version of Python that the system actually uses will always be 3.6. -- Miro Hrončok -- Phone: +420777974800 IRC: mhroncok
PyPy version is moving up version a lot faster than before. And Pypy 3.8 is mainstream in most development houses and enterprise. It seems P do not People rarely using latest python version But i agree on point that PyPy need to grow its userbase. Many of the people i talked with still think pypy CExt is still slow or incompatible with many C base Exts including Data Science stack. PyPy team needs to demystify those and bring more people in , Mirroring to Github is also a good idea , it can bring more pople and Stars (You know , most CTO choose tech stack base on github stars , not the actual usefulness) On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 10:42 PM Oliver Margetts <oliver.margetts@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 8:42 AM Dima Tisnek <dimaqq@gmail.com> wrote:
participants (5)
-
Dima Tisnek -
Miro Hrončok -
Oliver Margetts -
Phyo Arkar Lwin -
Steven D'Aprano