------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: edu-sig-bounces@python.org Delivery-Date: Fri Apr 21 10:34:25 2006 Return-Path: <edu-sig-bounces@python.org> Message-ID: <ca471dc20604210129o1fd21363nfa71bb9a90940ee5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:29:14 +0100 From: "Guido van Rossum" <guido@python.org> To: "Paul D. Fernhout" <pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com> There's a lot to read in your post and the links you post -- more than I have time ofr right now. Let me try to prune some of the ideas. I'm not interested in switching to Jython for this purpose; nor am I interested in directly linking to code that's part of Squeak -- unless, perhaps, there's some low-level code that is independent of the rest of the Squeak environment while providing some functionality we need. I'm also not interested in making Python an entirely self-contained system such as Squeak is -- much of Python's strengths come from its capabilities as a glue language, seamlessly integrating with other software on many different platforms. But, after encouragement from Alan Kay, I *am* interested in producing a Squeak-like environment *on top* of Python. Alan suggested using a slightly different starting point than Squeak; modern graphics cards have a wealth of functionality that can be accessed directly. I'm no graphics expert, but I believe OpenGL and perhaps SVG could be the right basis to get started. The approach that seems to make the most sense to me (but I'm open for alternatives) is to start out by producing a solid low-level graphics package like this that can work across platforms (Linux, Windows and OSX preferably); once that is settled, we could build an application resembling Squeak's UI. There's probably more to it; but typing this email at a busy conference my thoughts are a bit distracted. - --Guido On 4/21/06, Paul D. Fernhout <pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com> wrote:

I've long been interested in making Python development more Squeak Smalltalk like. See for example a recent post of mine to the Jython user mailing list with some code (would be also useful for CPython with a few changes): [jython-users] ReloaderWindow 0.2 (improvements to selective reloading) http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=14482359

On the topic of an integrated 2D/3D crossplatform solution for Python (like Squeak has), I'd like to point to my related comments on this list from six (!) years back:

[Edu-sig] Common Graphical Framework for Python Tutorials? Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:16:39 -0500 http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-February/000032.html

[Edu-sig] a modest proposal II Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:03:01 -0500 http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-February/000063.html

[Edu-sig] IDLE/TK limitations for learning environments Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:32:54 -0500 http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-February/000065.html

[Edu-sig] Not well supported on the Mac? Sun, 28 May 2000 15:24:21 -0400 http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2000-May/000495.html

Glad to see some interest in such ideas is perking up here. :-)

It's all quite doable with enough effort. Though I'd watch out for Squeak licensing and some Squeak unfinished complexity management issues. I think it might be better to just use the Squeak base cross-platform ideas or base code (or perhaps base a new work on wxWidgets) and build a larger common framework using Python technology and the Python license (and yet also of interest to Squeakers, like by adding in support for a Smalltalk parser).

Alternatively, one could build on top of Jython -- see my post on this list from last year on this topic:

[Edu-sig] On Jython for education Wed Oct 19 15:26:02 CEST 2005 http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2005-October/005410.html

I think the Jython-based approach might be easiest, though one then has to wrestle with other Java community and licensing issues. [I personally think the Squeak approach would be more stable and maintainable though, just 2000 lines of core C to port per platform, with widgets built on that, and a dynamic loading facility for other native code.] A cross-platform system supporting both Python and Smalltalk (and perhaps Java) on a JVM with a complete Smalltalk-like development environment (including cross-image debugging and development) and with 3D plus some sort of PythonCard/HyperCard framework out of the box, which had the option of running as a browser plugin, would be really neat. Probably at least few person months (for me :-) to get that going to the point where it reached a critical mass and was something people wanted to use or build on top of though. I've worked on bits and pieces of all these ideas in a variety of contexts, but never had a chance to put them all together.

--Paul Fernhout

Andre Roberge wrote:

...

And, if I may quote from Kirby's follow-up post http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2006/04/shuttleworth-summit-day-two.html --- [...] Loosely coupled tools, with a bottom-up, open source curriculum writing process, will leave the question of tools somewhat open-ended. The lesson plans will specify the software needed, with multiple paths possible. --- +1. I couldn't agree more :-) ============ [...] Momentum seems to be building for a stronger graphics engine, either 2D or 3D, with Python bindings, that'll run interactively from within a browser. The Squeak folks may be willing to contribute to this effort. Guido feels we'll need to recruit new talent for this, as the Python community is currently pretty maxed out on projects. Should such an engine be developed, turtle stuff would be incorporated therein. =======

I would love to see this happening and would definitely be willing to contribute to such an effort. Of course, I would use this to port rur-ple to the web (as a first step). Anybody else is as excited about this possibility as I am?

André

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