python-dev Summary for 2006-12-01 through 2006-12-15

python-dev Summary for 2006-12-01 through 2006-12-15 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ .. contents:: [The HTML version of this Summary is available at http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2006-12-01_2006-12-15] ============= Announcements ============= Some of you may know that Steven Bethard, having taken over the summaries from Brett Cannon some time ago, is no longer able to keep up with them. After much holiday stress and busy days, I've come to take over this honor and archive all the goings on here. I hope I can do a good job, and allow the summaries to continue being a useful and transparent fixture. Also, after catching up with my backlog of summary work, I plan to begin the first summaries of python-3000 (and, possibly, but not likely, the python- ideas list), as more and more actual work, rather than debating and theory-talk, is going on there. Sincerly, Your new summary writer, Calvin Spealman ========= Summaries ========= ------------------------- Indexing of Match Objects ------------------------- Subscripting re match objects directly was proposed and the debate the waged mostly on how to deal with slicing and m.group(0) to be the entire match. The consensus seemed to be that returning a match object would break, largely because m[1:2][0] != m[1], which breaks intuition with slices. Returning a list as a slice also breaks the intuitions about the type of a slice. Contributing thread: - `a feature i'd like to see in python #2: indexing of match objects <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070138.html>`__ ---------------------------------------- Python and the Linux Standard Base (LSB) ---------------------------------------- Discussions about how to properly document the expected Python environment for all LSB compliant distributions continued shortly. Focus was on how distros have a need to split the standard library up, even if the entire thing is eventually installed, and issues such as Tkinter requiring X leading to standard modules being ommitted for flexable packages. Contributing thread: - `Python and the Linux Standard Base (LSB) <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070112.html>`__ ------------------------------------- Number of Windows Installer Downloads ------------------------------------- Guido was impressed with out download numbers on Windows, but most people just attributed it to other platforms including and mirroring Python. Even taking that to consideration, the ratio of Windows to source downloads has shifted in Windows favor a good bit. The use of Python in introductory courses at MIT was mentioned as something to push these numbers further in the near future. Contributing thread: - `[Python-checkins] MSI being downloaded 10x more than all other files?! <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070294.html>`__ -------------------------- Deletion Through Iterators -------------------------- The request was made to allow direct deletion of items from iterables through the iterator, but the idea was deemed unscalable to iterables in general and broken with dictionaries. The solutions to work around the problem were given and generally agreed to be sufficient (such as copying all the items you want to keep, instead). Contributing thread: - `a feature i'd like to see in python #1: better iteration control <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070137.html>`__ ------------------------- LSB: Binary compatibility ------------------------- The other side of the LSB issue was discussed, related to the CPython ABI, the .pyc bytecode and the marshall formats, and exactly which versions of Python may or may not gain a standard ABI, as well as how to carry this forward to future (already existing and evolving) version of Python. Some mention was made of the difficulties and conflicts being brought on by the idea of LSB standards for Python, while the benefits of this were challenged. Contributing thread: - `LSB: Binary compatibility <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070191.html>`__ ---------------------------------------- Adding resume (206) support to urllib(2) ---------------------------------------- Daniel Watkins asked about adapting his HTTP resuming support into urllib, but suggestions directly moved this to urllib2 and then to httplib. The conversation quickly drifted into talking about how abstract and minimal the urllib(2) should be, while the httplib module may grow increasing complex and feature supporting. The original poster made no final comment on his intentions to follow through with the patch. Contributing thread: - `Adding resume (206) support to urllib(2) <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070320.html>`__ ------------------- __str__ and unicode ------------------- The details of what an object's __str__() method must return were inquired. Must the string returned by a str or any basestring? It was announced to allow unicode objects, with no restriction on content. However, the caution that the return is likely to be encoded into the default encoding was given. Contributing thread: - `__str__ and unicode <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070237.html>`__ ---------------------------------- LSB: Selection of a Python version ---------------------------------- Martin v. Lowis announced that LSB will likely move forward with Python 2.4 as the first LSB standard Python version. How to handle future bug patches, as well as the comfort of the distributions for being required to support an outdated package (2.4 is already "retired") was considered. The consensus settled on a documented support for 2.4 moving forward with security patches, and likely even 2.3, as security patches are rare enough to not cause too many cycles to be spent on them. Contributing thread: - `LSB: Selection of a Python version <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070189.html>`__ ------------------------------ Threading, atexit, and logging ------------------------------ A bug (#1566280) was previously reported, related to the ordering of the atexit handlers for the logging and threading modules. Participants in the thread had a general agreement that the threading module using such a user visiable mechanism for cleanup and lifetime was a bad design in the first place to be remedied. Contributing thread: - `Threading, atexit, and logging <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070233.html>`__ ----------------------------------- Creating dicts from dict subclasses ----------------------------------- The built-in types can now be subclassed, but C code doesn't always realize this, and relies too heavily on the internals of the base class. In this case, PyDict_Merge was assuming too much; replacing the PyDict_Check test with PyDict_CheckExact fixed the bug, but slowed things down a lot. Walter Dorwald suggested adding a not-quite-as-fast path for sensible mappings (including dict subclasses). Unfortunately, there was a bit of disagreement over what constituted "sensible". Should the middle-speed path use iteration over items (the exact content it needed), over keys (a bit faster in the current implemententation), or not even exist (to avoid limiting future implementations)? As of Jan 8, 2007, SVN has not been updated; there is no middle-speed path, and the bug is still possible. (Summary contributed by Jim Jewett) Contributing thread: - `Creating dicts from dict subclasses <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070334.html>`__ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- OT: World's oldest ritual discovered. Worshipped the python 70, 000 years ago ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This was a quick and off-topic post about other instances of python symbolism in ancient humanity, including a definition of our word "pythonic" to mean "prophetic", which seems fitting enough. Contributing thread: - `OT: World's oldest ritual discovered. Worshipped the python 70, 000 years ago <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070123.html>`__ ------------------ LSB: pyc stability ------------------ The LSB meetings brought up the issue of standardized bytecode formats, again. This has always been something discouraged from Python. Keeping the bytecode format free and the implementation open to ignoring old versions, has always been helpful for maintanence and development. The common reasoning of protecting IP was used, although most in-the-know consider this to be a false sense of security. Reguardless, it might be useful in legal ways, as trade secrets do require a reasonable attempt at hidding them in order to be recognized as such. The possible solution of importing encypted zip packages with a custom import hook was proposed and seems logical. Contributing thread: - `LSB: pyc stability <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070187.html>`__ ------------------------------- Interpolated Strings (ala perl) ------------------------------- Perl/PHP style string interpolation was brought up, but is found unreasonable for various reasons. Cons include the use of format strings in scopes outside where they are defined, the dangers of eval, and possibly the general resisting of any idea coming from Perl. This seems a highly unlikely proposal. Contributing thread: - `features i'd like [Python 3000?] ... #4: interpolated strings ala perl <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070173.html>`__ --------------------------- Polling with Pending Calls? --------------------------- Issues with the RPM library blocking interupts for long periods of time were brought up with proposed fixes by patching the rpmlib bindings to "automagically" poll for any pending calls. An existing patch was suggested but did not seem to fit the case at hand. Contributing thread: - `Polling with Pending Calls? <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070181.html>`__ --------------------- Cross-compile Patches --------------------- Patch 1597850 is being actively worked, and will improve the experience when compiling python for freeBSD from a linux environment. Contributing thread: - `cross-compile patches <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070216.html>`__ ------------------------------------ Open CPython VM for type information ------------------------------------ Would it make sense to modify the CPython virtual machine (bytecode) so that it was easier for other programs to produce bytecode? Answer: No -- those programs should produce either C (which gets called as a function) or python (which gets interpreted by the python interpreter -- there are already interpreters that don't use CPython bytecode. Contributing thread: - `Open CPython VM for type information <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070328.html>`__ =============== Skipped Threads =============== - `Weekly Python Patch/Bug Summary <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070119.html>`__ - `Windows SDK <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070308.html>`__ - `help for a noob - version for a sharp ARM <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070286.html>`__ - `fileinput module tests <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070307.html>`__ - `fpectl: does a better implementation make sense? <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070118.html>`__ - `Small tweak to tokenize.py? <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070127.html>`__ - `features i'd like [Python 3000] ... #3: fix super() <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070168.html>`__ - `Makefile.pre.in Patch <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070172.html>`__ - `Python and LSB: Meeting Report <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070186.html>`__ - `Virtual Python (was Re: Python and the Linux Standard Base (LSB)) <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070194.html>`__ - `DRAFT: python-dev summary for 2006-11-16 through 2006-11-30 <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070229.html>`__ - `Looking for new Python-Dev Summarizers <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070232.html>`__ - `Adding C99 bool to struct module <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070276.html>`__ - `Spam and semi-spam and neo-spam <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070284.html>`__ - `Next PyPy sprint: Leysin 8-14th January 2007 <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070217.html>`__ - `Distribution tools: What I would like to see <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070234.html>`__ - `RealClearPolitics - Articles - Exit Rumsfeld, Smiling <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-December/070283.html>`__ ======== Epilogue ======== This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from December 01, 2006 through December 15, 2006. It is intended to inform the wider Python community of on-going developments on the list on a semi-monthly basis. An archive_ of previous summaries is available online. An `RSS feed`_ of the titles of the summaries is available. You can also watch comp.lang.python or comp.lang.python.announce for new summaries (or through their email gateways of python-list or python-announce, respectively, as found at http://mail.python.org). This python-dev summary is the 1st written by Calvin Spealman. To contact me, please send email: - Calvin Spealman (ironfroggy at gmail dot com) Do *not* post to comp.lang.python if you wish to reach me. The `Python Software Foundation`_ is the non-profit organization that holds the intellectual property for Python. It also tries to advance the development and use of Python. If you find the python-dev Summary helpful please consider making a donation. You can make a donation at http://python.org/psf/donations.html . Every cent counts so even a small donation with a credit card, check, or by PayPal helps. -------------------- Commenting on Topics -------------------- To comment on anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email python-list@python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a subject line mentioning what you are discussing. All python-dev members are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don't hesitate to take a stance on something. And if all of this really interests you then get involved and join `python-dev`_! ------------------------- How to Read the Summaries ------------------------- This summary is written using reStructuredText_. Any unfamiliar punctuation is probably markup for reST_ (otherwise it is probably regular expression syntax or a typo :); you can safely ignore it. We do suggest learning reST, though; it's simple and is accepted for `PEP markup`_ and can be turned into many different formats like HTML and LaTeX. .. _python-dev: http://www.python.org/dev/ .. _python-dev mailing list: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev .. _comp.lang.python: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=comp.lang.python .. _PEP Markup: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0012.html .. _reST: .. _reStructuredText: http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html .. _Python Software Foundation: http://python.org/psf/ .. _archive: http://www.python.org/dev/summary/ .. _RSS feed: http://www.python.org/dev/summary/channews.rdf