On 1 March 2016 at 17:36, R. David Murray firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2016 04:10:08 +0000, Brett Cannon email@example.com wrote:
On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 at 18:01 Steven D'Aprano firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
So let me make it clear: Brett, and the other list maintainers, you're not listening. Even if I'm a minority of one out of the whole community, your words say "of course we care what you think" but your actions say "actually no, we couldn't care less". You might not have intended it that way, but nevertheless that's the way it is.
I see where the issue came in: I simply considered the discussion on the CoC already settled. As you pointed out in your second paragraph, the
Just so Steven doesn't think he's a minority of one, let me say that I too find CoCs problematic. I have a code of conduct, and it applies to my *life*. For shorthand, you could call it "being a gentleman", but a more modern term might be "being civil". Do I fail to live up to my personal code occasionally? Yes, and I hope people call me on it when I do fail. Do I care what code of conduct the organization has promulgated? No. It has no affect on my behavior, nor will it. At most, it might drive me from the community if it is ever used against me.
Let me also add that I have little or no interest in codes of conduct. I don't *object* to them (specifically I have no problem with the Python CoC or it being applied to core devs in relevant situations) but it seems to me that they are becoming a bit of a "trendy thing to have" rather than anything of any particular substance.
But ultimately what matters is that people who feel unwelcome, or discriminated against, have said that they help lessen such problems - so that's fine by me. I'm 100% behind doing whatever makes such people feel better about participating in the community.
Contrariwise, I wouldn't feel any need to refer to a CoC when calling someone out on bad behaviour - if pointing out that they are being unpleasant isn't enough then waving a set of rules at them won't help. And if *I* ever behave badly, I'd expect people to simply say so, not to quote a CoC at me.
Going into specifics:
Brett - I don't have any problem with what you did, or the changes you want to make. Steven - you make some good points that I think people should keep in mind But overall, arguing over the specifics of how we set our expectations that people simply be nice to each other is basically a bit silly, and if we let it go on, could easily result in the opposite effect from what was intended.
That's about all I have to say on this matter. Paul