On 2/13/22 9:46 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:

Does https://github.com/python/voters/ suffice?

That will get me the core-devs, but not the triagers. I will start with that, thanks. Ah, and I see we have a Python Triage team on github as well; that's a small enough list I can add them by hand.

Thanks!

-- ~Ethan~

On 2/17/22 8:44 AM, Petr Viktorin wrote:

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 4:16 AM Ethan Furman wrote:

...

I'm looking to prune the core-mentorship subscriber list as I'm confident 90%+ are folks that wanted help learning Python, not folks wanting help to develop Python itself. Towards that end I want to unsubscribe anyone who has not been active in the last six months, excepting core-devs and triagers.

Why do you want to do that?

For a couple reasons:

• The list was created to be a safe place for people to ask questions without worrying about being perceived as ignorant (or any other negative label), and towards that end the list archives are private (but viewable to any member).

• Folks that have signed up mistakenly are extremely unlikely to have read/understood the purpose of the list nor, more importantly, its restrictions[1].

• The list is not intended to be a place for lurking, but for actively learning.

If people feel the list is not for them, they can unsubscribe themselves.

But they don't. (It's a low-volume list, so the usual mail-overload motivation is absent.)

Unsubscribing inactive people seems unlikely to reduce unwanted messages from those that subscribed to the wrong list -- don't those tend to be sent just after someone subscribes?

Most subscribe, and then do nothing.

Is there another reason?

Given the nature and purpose of the list, I feel an up-to-date membership should be maintained. Also, re-subscribing is encouraged should their interests/time allow them to pursue core development.

-- ~Ethan~

• Subscriptions may expire for lack of activity, but resubscribing is welcomed.

This does not mean we *need* to expel people due to inactivity. Lurking is one method of learning. Manually, I would not bother to try and remove inactive subscribers until an actual problem arises.

If we do want to do this, it should be a fully automated process that happens on a scheduled basis with a scheduled idea of who is auto unsubscribed. something like a quarterly process that removes people who are not on python-committers who have not posted in over 12 months. or any similar definition of dates. well defined automation removes any feeling of targeting or arbitrary moderator whim.

my 2 cents, -gps

On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 9:48 AM Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:

Accidentally trimmed footnote with link to list info page, so reproducing the page itself here:

...

Summary

Python Core Development Mentorship

The Python Core Development Mentorship list is intended to provide a welcoming introductory environment for developers interested in contributing to core Python development.

The list is moderated and private; this means:

• Only subscribers may post messages without moderator approval.
• Only messages relating to core development are allowed.
• Messages with the primary purpose of promoting commercial offerings will not be tolerated. [0]
• Messages containing any type of tracking technology will not be tolerated. [1]
• Subscriptions may expire for lack of activity, but resubscribing is welcomed.

Subscribing also means receiving messages sent only to the list, rather than relying on being included in the CC list for replies.

In addition to this list, written guidelines for contributing can be found in the Developer's Guide for CPython: https://devguide.python.org .

A major goal of this group is to help new contributors feel more confident about participating in the results-focused public environments of the bug tracker, python-dev, and python-ideas.

The following code of conduct is not meant as a means for punishment, action, or censorship for the mailing list or project. Instead, it is meant to set the tone, expectations, and comfort level for mentors and those wishing to be mentored on the list.

• We ask everyone to be welcoming, friendly, and patient.
• Flame wars and insults are unacceptable in any fashion, by any party.
• Anything can be asked, and "RTFM" is not an acceptable answer.
• Neither is "it's in the archives, go read them".
• List archives are available only to subscribers, but subscription is open to everyone.
• Since the archives are closed cross posting to public mailing lists is discouraged.
• Statements made by core developers can be quoted outside of the list.
• Statements made by others can not be quoted outside the list without explicit permission. [2]
• We endorse the PSF's Diversity statement.
• All participants are expected to follow the PSF Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
• The list administrators reserve the right to revoke the subscription of members (including mentors) that persistently fail to abide by this Code of Conduct.

[0] This is a grey area: Mentioning a commercial offering by a regularly active member as part of a relevant response to a question is fine; so is a genuine question including mention of a commercial product

[1] Use of tracking is grounds for immediate revocation of list membership.

[2] Anonymised, paraphrased statements or questions are okay; direct quotes with or without names are not.

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On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 10:23:47AM -0800, Ethan Furman wrote:

On 2/17/22 10:11 AM, Gregory P. Smith wrote:

...

...

• Subscriptions may expire for lack of activity, but resubscribing is welcomed.

This does not mean we /need/ to expel people due to inactivity. Lurking is one method of learning.

And for that we have -list, -ideas, and -dev

...

If we do want to do this, it should be a fully automated process that happens on a scheduled basis with a scheduled idea of who is auto unsubscribed.

That's what I'm working on. I have zero interest in manually unsubcribing 1500+ people (of whom at least 1500 have never participated at all).

This exercise feels a bit unusual to me. I am not entirely sure if this the right maintenance task.

If the utility value of the list has faded way, archiving the list, and pointing the subgroup to other active places seems like better idea to me.

-- Senthil

On 17. 02. 22 20:05, Ethan Furman wrote:

On 2/17/22 10:47 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote:

...

If the utility value of the list has faded way, archiving the list, and pointing the subgroup to other active places seems like better idea to me.

The list is useful, just for a very small set of people -- namely, those that want to contribute but need a friendly, supportive, and non-judgemental area to get started.  At this point, we don't have any other place like that.

I still don't quite see how inactive subscribers make the list worse. Could you elaborate on that?

We should probably give the list a shout-out on the other lists once a quarter or so to encourage active membership.

-- ~Ethan~

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Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/