See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log: https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390

Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant core devs, but now I can't find that email.

Mariatta

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM M.-A. Lemburg mal@egenix.com wrote:

It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one which core devs can also show to other to prove they are core developers.

I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide, but we could also use a page on www.python.org, if that's easier to maintain.

Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows list:

https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows

Thoughts ?

Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional. The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will require such a list.

Thanks,

Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)

...

...

...

Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

---

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

Le 01/08/2018 à 23:31, Jack Diederich a écrit :

https://hg.python.org/committers.txt

Probably outdated, for example Pablo Salingo Salgado doesn't seem there.

Regards

Antoine.

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Mariatta Wijaya mailto:mariatta.wijaya@gmail.com> wrote:

See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log:
https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390
<https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390>

Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the
dormant core devs, but now I can't find that email.

Mariatta


On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com
<mailto:mal@egenix.com>> wrote:

    It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core
    developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one
    which core devs can also show to other to prove they are
    core developers.

    I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide,
    but we could also use a page on www.python.org
    <http://www.python.org>, if that's easier
    to maintain.

    Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows
    list:

    https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows
    <https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows>

    Thoughts ?

    Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional.
    The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will
    require such a list.

    Thanks,
    -- 
    Marc-Andre Lemburg
    eGenix.com

    Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug
    01 2018)
    >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... 
    http://www.egenix.com/
    >>> Python Database Interfaces ...         
     http://products.egenix.com/
    >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...         
     http://zope.egenix.com/
    ________________________________________________________________________

    ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and
    costs :::

       eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
        D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
               Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
                   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
    <http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/>
                          http://www.malemburg.com/

    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers@python.org <mailto:python-committers@python.org>
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
    <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers>
    Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
    <https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/>


_______________________________________________
python-committers mailing list
python-committers@python.org <mailto:python-committers@python.org>
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
<https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers>
Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
<https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/>

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 3:44 PM M.-A. Lemburg mal@egenix.com wrote:

On 01.08.2018 23:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

...

See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log: https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390

Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant core devs, but now I can't find that email.

I think the log is fine at it is, since it serves a different purpose.

The list should be in addition to the log, not replacing it.

Resources we already have:

• https://devguide.python.org/developers/
• https://bugs.python.org/user?%40action=search&iscommitter=1&%40pagesize=300&%40sort=username
• python-committers Subscribers List (but this is currently only for list admins to see - perhaps we could make that available to list members ?!)
• https://hg.python.org/committers.txt
• for the early days:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/python/cpython/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9... in combination with

https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170a... (in those times, there was no direct access to the repo and all patches had to go through the team around Guido)

There's also:

• the members of the github team
• folks marked as committers as BPO

I don't recall if these are exposed via public lists though.

-eric

I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers of other Python implementations in such a document, in separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy, Stackless, etc.

On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
of other Python implementations in such a document, in
separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
Stackless, etc

Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, right?

Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core developers.

For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily enough.

Eric

On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:

On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

...

    I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers of other Python implementations in such a document, in separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy, Stackless, etc

Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, right?

Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core developers.

I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded this in one place.

Other projects will, of course, have their own websites, but since Python is more than just CPython, it would be great to include those other developers in an official list as well. It would be up for for the other teams to maintain their lists.

That said, this part is lower priority than the CPython core developer listing.

For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily enough. As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.

What I am after, is a list of core developers, not a list of people with their keys on github (or where ever we move in the future), since this list is not about a technical status, but rather a social one.

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 02 2018)

...

...

Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/

Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.

I always thought there were already at least three places containing the necessary email addresses.

• python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.
• according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which AFAIK requires a confirmed email address.
• Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ wich also contains a mandatory email field

So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?

2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith eric@trueblade.com:

On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

...

On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:

...

On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

...

 I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
 of other Python implementations in such a document, in
 separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
 Stackless, etc

Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, right?

Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core developers.

I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded this in one place.

I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved to github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or not) for all core devs, and I gave up without much success.

I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people who have been given the "core dev" status.

For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are

...

...

those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily enough.

As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.

Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.

Eric

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

On Aug 1, 2018, at 23:37, Antoine Pitrou antoine@python.org wrote:

...

Le 01/08/2018 à 23:31, Jack Diederich a écrit : https://hg.python.org/committers.txt

Probably outdated, for example Pablo Salingo Salgado doesn't seem there.

And historically incomplete: I seem to be missing from that list, even though github say I have commit rights. Interestingly, Sjoerd Mullender _is_ on the list (and who of us two is the second committee to python and who is the third is a matter of discussion:-)

Jack

On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 at 14:44 M.-A. Lemburg mal@egenix.com wrote:

On 01.08.2018 23:28, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

...

See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log: https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390

Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant core devs, but now I can't find that email.

I think the log is fine at it is, since it serves a different purpose.

What is the purpose? I don't remember why we started to keep the developer log in that format as I have never felt the need to go back and see who vouched for someone or who granted the commit rights in the end.

-Brett

The list should be in addition to the log, not replacing it.

Resources we already have:

• https://devguide.python.org/developers/

https://bugs.python.org/user?%40action=search&iscommitter=1&%40pagesize=300&%40sort=username

• python-committers Subscribers List (but this is currently only for list admins to see - perhaps we could make that available to list members ?!)
• https://hg.python.org/committers.txt
• for the early days:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/python/cpython/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9... in combination with

https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/e42b705188271da108de42b55d9344642170a... (in those times, there was no direct access to the repo and all patches had to go through the team around Guido)

I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers of other Python implementations in such a document, in separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy, Stackless, etc.

...

Mariatta

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM M.-A. Lemburg mal@egenix.com wrote:

...

It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one which core devs can also show to other to prove they are core developers.

I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide, but we could also use a page on www.python.org, if that's easier to maintain.

Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows list:

https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows

Thoughts ?

Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional. The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will require such a list.

Thanks,

Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)

...

...

...

Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

---

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)

...

...

...

Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

---

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 at 14:29 Mariatta Wijaya mariatta.wijaya@gmail.com wrote:

See also an open issue to revamp the Developer log: https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/390

Someone has also said that they're working on tracking down the dormant core devs, but now I can't find that email.

Ethan said he would reach out to the folks on bugs.python.org who don't have a GitHub usernames listed, but I don't know if he was going to get to this before the dev sprints.

-Brett

Mariatta

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 2:15 PM M.-A. Lemburg mal@egenix.com wrote:

...

It's become fairly obvious that we are missing a list of core developers on some site. One we can use as reference and one which core devs can also show to other to prove they are core developers.

I guess the natural place for such a list is the dev guide, but we could also use a page on www.python.org, if that's easier to maintain.

Regarding format, I'd suggest to use the same as PSF Fellows list:

https://www.python.org/psf/members/#fellows

Thoughts ?

Note: Asking for this now is not completely unintentional. The EuroPython Society has something to announce which will require such a list.

Thanks,

Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 01 2018)

...

...

...

Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

---

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

as long we are okay with long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm personally fine with)

That sounds reasonable. Maintaining contact info is everyone's own responsibility and not a too hard requirement. And I see that for the vote it's necessary to sort out emails more carefully. Because of the duplicates issue, votes should probably better be counted based on names rather than emails though. Anyway, it appears to me that the emails issue is orthogonal to the dev list issue.

2018-08-02 23:25 GMT+02:00 Brett Cannon brett@python.org:

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer stefan.richthofer@gmail.com wrote:

...

Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email

...

addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.

I always thought there were already at least three places containing the necessary email addresses.

• python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.

The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails for people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email from a personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).

...

• according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which AFAIK requires a confirmed email address.

• Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement

...

https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains a mandatory email field

So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?

Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to too many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we will need a place to send ballots.

Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition of it being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing list is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay with long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm personally fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with commit privileges then that's a separate challenge.

-Brett

...

2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith eric@trueblade.com:

...

On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

...

On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:

...

On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

...

 I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
 of other Python implementations in such a document, in
 separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
 Stackless, etc

Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, right?

Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core developers.

I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded this in one place.

I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved to github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or not) for all core devs, and I gave up without much success.

I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people who have been given the "core dev" status.

For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are

...

...

those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily enough.

As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.

Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.

Eric

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

On 02.08.2018 23:16, Brett Cannon wrote:

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 00:32 M.-A. Lemburg mal@egenix.com wrote:

...

On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:

...

On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

...

I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers
of other Python implementations in such a document, in
separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
Stackless, etc

Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, right?

Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core developers.

I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded this in one place.

Other projects will, of course, have their own websites, but since Python is more than just CPython, it would be great to include those other developers in an official list as well. It would be up for for the other teams to maintain their lists.

That said, this part is lower priority than the CPython core developer listing.

...

For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily enough. As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.

...

What I am after, is a list of core developers, not a list of people with their keys on github (or where ever we move in the future), since this list is not about a technical status, but rather a social one.

Then the issue I created which Mariatta linked to I think covers this desire to have a historical record of people who have been core developers along with when they have had commit privileges.

Yes, it does, but it's not a replacement, it's an additional simple to query reference for 3rd parties.

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 03 2018)

...

...

Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/

We should probably have a single source of truth for what a core developer is, and all other systems pull from that.

On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:43 AM, M.-A. Lemburg mal@egenix.com wrote:

Please note that the motivation for having a list similar to the one we have for PSF Fellows is not to determine voting eligibility.

This is about having a record of the core developer status available to show to 3rd parties, e.g. to (potential) employers, organizations, government agencies, etc.

Having a place to also record the email addresses for internal use such a voting or sending messages to the whole group is a good idea nonetheless. This mailing list will likely already serve that purpose.

On 02.08.2018 23:25, Brett Cannon wrote:

...

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer stefan.richthofer@gmail.com wrote:

...

Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email

...

addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.

I always thought there were already at least three places containing the necessary email addresses.

• python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.

The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails for people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email from a personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).

...

• according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which AFAIK requires a confirmed email address.

• Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement

...

https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains a mandatory email field

So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?

Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to too many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we will need a place to send ballots.

Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition of it being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing list is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay with long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm personally fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with commit privileges then that's a separate challenge.

-Brett

...

2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith eric@trueblade.com:

...

On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

...

On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:

...

On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

> I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers > of other Python implementations in such a document, in > separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy, > Stackless, etc > > > Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to > keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python > implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They > have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, > right? >

Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core developers.

I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded this in one place.

I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved to github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or not) for all core devs, and I gave up without much success.

I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people who have been given the "core dev" status.

For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are

...

...

those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily enough.

As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.

Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.

Eric

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 03 2018)

...

...

...

Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

---

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

On Aug 3, 2018, at 1:52 PM, Brett Cannon brett@python.org wrote:

On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 00:44 Donald Stufft mailto:donald@stufft.io> wrote: We should probably have a single source of truth for what a core developer is, and all other systems pull from that.

Ah, but I think there might be a terminology clash here. Using MALs definition means that you can be a core developer but not have commit privileges due to relinquishing those privileges at some point. So I'm not sure what systems you are referring to that need to know if someone historically happened to be a core developer.

We have that I am aware of right now:

• GitHub
• bugs.p.o
• python-committers

And it sounds like Marc-Andre is looking to add to it:

• A third party/user facing list of developers, regardless of the technical status of their ability to commit (e.g. even if they don’t have a GitHub account).

There may be other systems that I can’t recall off the top of my head (is anything still in hg.python.org http://hg.python.org/? I dunno).

As of right now, I believe the list of who a core developer is and has historically been somewhat adhoc based upon who has permissions to commit things. Meaning that as we transition from one system to another we “lose” the ability to account for people over the years. This would also make it harder for someone to come back, because they’d have to track down someone who knew they were a core developer (and let’s be honest, human memory sucks so sometimes you’re just not sure if someone was or wasn’t).

So I think it would probably be a good thing if we had one central location that answers the question of who is and isn’t a core developer, that isn’t tied to the ACLs of one particular system that we happen to be using today. Ideally these other related systems (bugs.p.o, Github, etc) are then modified to pull from this thing as the singular source of truth. This could be as simple as a CSV/tom/yaml file sitting in a repository somewhere that lists all of the developers, their status etc, plus scripts that will synchronize access from that to the relevant places.

So for arguments sake, it could be a CSV file with the schema:

Name, Email, Active, bugs.p.o Username, GitHub username

And then a script that could be ran whenever that would check the permissions of the GitHub team for CPython, and ensure that anyone listed there has been added to the GitHub team (and probably anyone who isn’t, has been removed, to ensure that getting in this file is the _way_ you get access). Likewise bugs.p.o could pull from this, and Marc-Andre’s public facing list could as well.

Of course we can get fancier than a simple file somewhere, the key thing is that there is a single source of truth, that isn’t tied to one particular service or tool that we use (unless that tool is dedicated to managing this list of people), because anytime we tie maintaining this list of people to the technical aspects of giving someone an ACL to a particular system, then our list is going to become outdated anytime we switch systems (and some % of people won’t ever make the jump to the new system).

Assuming what you mean is people with commit privileges, then we have the "lovely" complication of usernames being inconsistent for people across systems which is probably what is required to make any centralized list useful for systems to interact with. We could solve this by using a table instead of a list for people to list e.g. their GitHub and b.p.o usernames if people wanted to go that route.

...

On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:43 AM, M.-A. Lemburg mailto:mal@egenix.com> wrote:

Please note that the motivation for having a list similar to the one we have for PSF Fellows is not to determine voting eligibility.

This is about having a record of the core developer status available to show to 3rd parties, e.g. to (potential) employers, organizations, government agencies, etc.

Having a place to also record the email addresses for internal use such a voting or sending messages to the whole group is a good idea nonetheless. This mailing list will likely already serve that purpose.

On 02.08.2018 23:25, Brett Cannon wrote:

...

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer mailto:stefan.richthofer@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email

...

addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.

I always thought there were already at least three places containing the necessary email addresses.

• python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.

The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails for people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email from a personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).

...

• according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which AFAIK requires a confirmed email address.

• Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement

...

https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains a mandatory email field

So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?

Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to too many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we will need a place to send ballots.

Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition of it being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing list is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay with long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm personally fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with commit privileges then that's a separate challenge.

-Brett

...

2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith mailto:eric@trueblade.com>:

...

On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

...

On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:

> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote: > >> I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers >> of other Python implementations in such a document, in >> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy, >> Stackless, etc >> >> >> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to >> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python >> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They >> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, >> right? >> > > Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core > developers. >

I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded this in one place.

I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved to github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or not) for all core devs, and I gave up without much success.

I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people who have been given the "core dev" status.

For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are

...

> those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will > eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to > github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily > enough. > As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.

Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.

Eric

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org mailto:python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org mailto:python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org mailto:python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 03 2018)

...

...

...

Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/ http://zope.egenix.com/

---

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/ http://www.malemburg.com/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org mailto:python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

Yea to be clear. I just used csv and those fields as an example. I think TOML is a better choice, and we can add whatever fields are useful.

Part of the devguide build step could be turning that into a nice human facing list (does that satisfy what Marc-Andre is looking for?). We could also have a cronjob that syncs github permissions with that list.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 4, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Brett Cannon brett@python.org wrote:

...

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 21:59 Donald Stufft, donald@stufft.io wrote:

...

On Aug 3, 2018, at 1:52 PM, Brett Cannon brett@python.org wrote:

On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 00:44 Donald Stufft donald@stufft.io wrote:

...

We should probably have a single source of truth for what a core developer is, and all other systems pull from that.

Ah, but I think there might be a terminology clash here. Using MALs definition means that you can be a core developer but not have commit privileges due to relinquishing those privileges at some point. So I'm not sure what systems you are referring to that need to know if someone historically happened to be a core developer.

We have that I am aware of right now:

• GitHub
• bugs.p.o
• python-committers

And it sounds like Marc-Andre is looking to add to it:

• A third party/user facing list of developers, regardless of the technical status of their ability to commit (e.g. even if they don’t have a GitHub account).

There may be other systems that I can’t recall off the top of my head (is anything still in hg.python.org? I dunno).

For us, hg.python.org only has the b.p.o code.

...

As of right now, I believe the list of who a core developer is and has historically been somewhat adhoc based upon who has permissions to commit things.

Yep.

...

Meaning that as we transition from one system to another we “lose” the ability to account for people over the years. This would also make it harder for someone to come back, because they’d have to track down someone who knew they were a core developer (and let’s be honest, human memory sucks so sometimes you’re just not sure if someone was or wasn’t).

Yes, us old-timers aren't perfect. 😉 If someone couldn't remember we would probably go into the mailing list archives.

...

So I think it would probably be a good thing if we had one central location that answers the question of who is and isn’t a core developer, that isn’t tied to the ACLs of one particular system that we happen to be using today. Ideally these other related systems (bugs.p.o, Github, etc) are then modified to pull from this thing as the singular source of truth. This could be as simple as a CSV/tom/yaml file sitting in a repository somewhere that lists all of the developers, their status etc, plus scripts that will synchronize access from that to the relevant places.

It would probably sit in the devguide. The question is how to potentially display this in a readable format? Or maybe we don't care as long as we use a format that makes both humans and computers happy? Otherwise we would have to add a build step to the site. (Personally I say we do it in TOML since it's readable and can still be writable through the GitHub web UI since I am typically the person adding new folks 😁; we can then just link to it for people to peruse.)

...

So for arguments sake, it could be a CSV file with the schema:

Name, Email, Active, bugs.p.o Username, GitHub username

I would toss into the year joined. I know over in the GitHub issue about this topic that people also don't want to lose mentor/voucher/proposer and any notes about why the person got their commit privileges.

...

And then a script that could be ran whenever that would check the permissions of the GitHub team for CPython, and ensure that anyone listed there has been added to the GitHub team (and probably anyone who isn’t, has been removed, to ensure that getting in this file is the _way_ you get access). Likewise bugs.p.o could pull from this, and Marc-Andre’s public facing list could as well.

Of course we can get fancier than a simple file somewhere, the key thing is that there is a single source of truth, that isn’t tied to one particular service or tool that we use (unless that tool is dedicated to managing this list of people), because anytime we tie maintaining this list of people to the technical aspects of giving someone an ACL to a particular system, then our list is going to become outdated anytime we switch systems (and some % of people won’t ever make the jump to the new system).

...

Assuming what you mean is people with commit privileges, then we have the "lovely" complication of usernames being inconsistent for people across systems which is probably what is required to make any centralized list useful for systems to interact with. We could solve this by using a table instead of a list for people to list e.g. their GitHub and b.p.o usernames if people wanted to go that route.

...

...

On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:43 AM, M.-A. Lemburg mal@egenix.com wrote:

Please note that the motivation for having a list similar to the one we have for PSF Fellows is not to determine voting eligibility.

This is about having a record of the core developer status available to show to 3rd parties, e.g. to (potential) employers, organizations, government agencies, etc.

Having a place to also record the email addresses for internal use such a voting or sending messages to the whole group is a good idea nonetheless. This mailing list will likely already serve that purpose.

On 02.08.2018 23:25, Brett Cannon wrote:

...

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer stefan.richthofer@gmail.com wrote:

> Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email >> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them. >> > > I always thought there were already at least three places containing the > necessary email addresses. > > * python-committers should be exactly this mailing list. >

The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails for people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email from a personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).

> * according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it is > mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which AFAIK > requires a confirmed email address. >

• Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement

...

https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains a mandatory email field

So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?

Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to too many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we will need a place to send ballots.

Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition of it being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing list is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay with long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm personally fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with commit privileges then that's a separate challenge.

-Brett

> > 2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith eric@trueblade.com: > >> On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: >> >>> On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote: >>> >>>> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think it would also be a good idea to include core developers >>>>> of other Python implementations in such a document, in >>>>> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy, >>>>> Stackless, etc >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to >>>>> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate Python >>>>> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? They >>>>> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and everything, >>>>> right? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core >>>> developers. >>>> >>> >>> I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only >>> problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded >>> this in one place. >>> >> >> I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core devs, or >> more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we moved to >> github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or not) for >> all core devs, and I gave up without much success. >> >> I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for people >> who have been given the "core dev" status. >> >> For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are >>>> those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will >>>> eliminate some people who have been core developers and never moved to >>>> github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them easily >>>> enough. >>>> >>> As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you >>> gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have >>> commit rights to the (current) repo and this status. >>> >> >> Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email >> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them. >> >> Eric >> >> _______________________________________________ >> python-committers mailing list >> python-committers@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers >> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> > > _______________________________________________ > python-committers mailing list > python-committers@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 03 2018)

...

>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >> Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ >> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

---

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/

---

python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/