python-committers is dead, long live discuss.python.org
Hello committers, since this got pretty long, here's the tl;dr:
- we're at the point where it is hard to make mailing lists work for us;
- we're switching to Discourse; it's better in many ways;
- go to https://discuss.python.org/ <https://discuss.python.org/> and create your account there;
- please do not post to python-committers for the remainder of the year to give Discourse a real shot.
And now the long version.
What's the issue? During the core sprint in Redmond we discussed how we discuss. The overwhelming feel is that we have reached the limits of what is possible with mailing lists. We identified e-mail as a contributor to some of the problems we're dealing with now. To fix more and whine less, I talked with everybody in Redmond about a possible replacement for the trusty mailing list. We identified one: Discourse.
What is it? Discourse is forum software started in 2013 by Jeff Atwood, Robin Ward, and Sam Saffron. It's used by many large scale open source projects and companies, including Github Atom, Twitter Developers, Rust, Kotlin, Elixir, Docker, Codeacademy, Patreon, EVE Online, and Imgur. It's open source (Ruby, GPL2), it supports plugins and has an API.
Why is it better than e-mail? It's both a Web app and a terrific mobile application. It supports regular flat conversational threads and collapsible replies. There is community moderation where users can flag inappropriate messages to notify moderators, moderators and authors can lock topics, move discussions between categories, archive things that are no longer applicable, and so on.
You can edit posts, quote posts, link between posts, add rich media, code snippets with syntax highlighting, there's Markdown support. You can still use it via e-mail similarly to how GitHub notifications work. See: https://meta.discourse.org/t/set-up-reply-via-email-support/14003 <https://meta.discourse.org/t/set-up-reply-via-email-support/14003>
There is a user trust system where proven community members get more power in time, for example to fix typos and move topics to a better category.
There's much more: dynamic notifications, topic summaries, emojis, spam blocking, single sing-on, two-factor authentication, social login support, and so on. Read: https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298 <https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298>.
What about Zulip? Zulip is chat software which some of us find useful but its UI is proving to be challenging for many of us, the mobile application leaves a lot to be desired, and it did not end up moving discussions out of the mailing lists. I see Zulip as replacement for IRC whereas Discourse is replacement for mailing lists (or both; we'll see!).
Where do I sign up? Create an account at https://discuss.python.org/ <https://discuss.python.org/>. You'll recognize the set up as essentially mirroring the main mailing lists:
- Committers
- Users
- Ideas There's also Discourse-specific sections:
- Discourse Feedback (post here if things don't work like you'd like)
- Discourse Staff (hidden category for moderators and admins of the instance, boring discussion)
- Inquisition (hidden category for users with trust level 3+)
As you can see, I combined python-committers and python-dev into just "Committers". If we find in the future that this is too limiting, we can always open up another category. For now though I'd like to avoid the fate of python-dev where there's 20k+ subscribers and we don't know who is who.
CALL TO ACTION We'd like to heavily test this new forum. As such, I would like to ask you to NOT USE python-committers for the remainder of the year and direct all conversation to Discourse.
The goal to replace the mailing lists with Discourse met unanimous support at the core sprint. As long as we don't identify any deal breakers in October, I will send an e-mail like this to python-dev on November 1st, and to python-list and python-ideas on December 1st. If everything goes smoothly, those four mailing lists will be archived by end of this year. Other mailing lists are welcome to port over to Discourse too.
Acknowledgements Pablo and Ernest worked on setting up this instance for us (thank you both! 🖤). The question whether Discourse or the Python Software Foundation are going to pay for this infrastructure is still open but, as Elon Musk likes to say, funding is secured. Yury and I are helping in configuring the instance.
Future work We'll be enabling GitHub and social logins soon, ideally with adding identified committers to the committers group by default. We are looking into this right now. In the mean time, please request membership, an existing member will add you. We'd like to migrate old discussion off of the mailing lists to our Discourse instance so that search is immediately useful. We'll look into that after the governance crisis is resolved.
- Ł
Le ven. 28 sept. 2018 à 23:46, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> a écrit :
- go to https://discuss.python.org/ and create your account there;
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
Oh, I just saw that Berker sent a message: "Membership Request for @committers" https://discuss.python.org/t/membership-request-for-committers/27/2
I don't see this message in any category. Is it a private message?
Victor
On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
Le ven. 28 sept. 2018 à 23:46, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> a écrit :
- go to https://discuss.python.org/ and create your account there;
It seems like anyone can subscribe.
Yes.
Is the Committer group reserved to core developers?
Yes, so far we just approve by hand until we get the GitHub automation going.
If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
I'm confirming by looking at the e-mail with which an account was registered.
Oh, I just saw that Berker sent a message: "Membership Request for @committers" https://discuss.python.org/t/membership-request-for-committers/27/2
I don't see this message in any category. Is it a private message?
Yes.
Now, further questions go to https://discuss.python.org/c/site-feedback <https://discuss.python.org/c/site-feedback>! :>
- Ł
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 1:03 AM Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
Oh, I just saw that Berker sent a message: "Membership Request for @committers" https://discuss.python.org/t/membership-request-for-committers/27/2
I don't see this message in any category. Is it a private message?
If I understood it correctly, all members of @committers also marked as owners, so you will get notifications for membership requests, flagged posts etc.
--Berker
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for anyone to read. Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core developers and non-core developers?
-Barry
As you already witnessed, yes it does.
-- Best regards, Łukasz Langa
On Sep 29, 2018, at 02:21, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for anyone to read. Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core developers and non-core developers?
-Barry
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for anyone to read. Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core developers and non-core developers?
I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas forum.
I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check these just to keep up with everything.
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
On Sep 29, 2018, at 08:50, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> wrote:
I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas forum.
I assume it's the faulty mailing list medium that made you miss my response to Barry where I say that this is indeed supported ;-)
See, Discourse would already save you a paragraph of worry. Why don't you try it out for a while and see how it feels? I understand the power of habit but I promise you that there's plenty of things that make the adjustment worthwhile.
- Ł
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 09:23, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
On Sep 29, 2018, at 08:50, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> wrote:
I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas forum.
I assume it's the faulty mailing list medium that made you miss my response to Barry where I say that this is indeed supported ;-)
See, Discourse would already save you a paragraph of worry. Why don't you try it out for a while and see how it feels? I understand the power of habit but I promise you that there's plenty of things that make the adjustment worthwhile.
I mentioned something similar on Discourse, but I'm going to add a comment here. This sort of dismissal of the validity of other people's long-established workflows is not very helpful. I use email, It's not because I've no idea how to use web forums, nor is it because I'm an old fuddy-duddy. It suits my workflow. I use a *lot* of web forums, as well as tools like Stack Overflow, reddit, Discord, etc. They simply do not always suit my requirements as well as email. Some examples:
- Pull technology rather than push. The fact that email is *delivered* to me is a critical benefit for certain types of interaction, and one that's far too easily dismissed by people who promote pull solutions. It's baffling to me that such a fundamental difference is routinely treated as "minor".
- Email-forum interfaces are in my experience uniformly suboptimal. I'm OK with the idea that I need to compromise and not expect people who prefer a forum to do all the work, but nevertheless, seeing the typical email response appear in a forum (with quoted text, signatures, etc) is very disruptive to conversation flow.
- Maintaining accounts for various bits of forum software is a pain when you use as many devices as I do.
- Browser tabs. Some of my devices are close to unusable *already* because of the RAM usage of my browser with multiple tabs open. Is someone going to suggest that there's a minimum hardware requirement to participate?
Can we please consider that people have a lot of investment in email, and being willing to try a new approach is a big commitment. Responding to valid concerns with "just try it, you'll like it" is pretty non-constructive.
Paul
PS I *am* trying Discourse out. I'm somewhat interested in a "better than email" solution. So this is emphatically *not* a "do things my way or I won't play" posting.
On Sep 29, 2018, at 6:03 AM, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
- Pull technology rather than push. The fact that email is *delivered* to me is a critical benefit for certain types of interaction, and one that's far too easily dismissed by people who promote pull solutions. It's baffling to me that such a fundamental difference is routinely treated as "minor".
FWIW, Discourse can be configured to be push or pull based on a personal level. Not only on a personal level, but you can control at at the category (similar to different lists), tag, or individual topic level. I’ve responded to you on Discourse in more detail, but I find the level of control quite nice in a way that lets you choose push or pull based upon how much you care about a particular topic.
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 11:03:59AM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
I mentioned something similar on Discourse, but I'm going to add a comment here. This sort of dismissal of the validity of other people's long-established workflows is not very helpful. [snip]
Thank you Paul.
Discourse may or may not be great, but this rush to change forums in the midst of not one but two community crises[1] seems ill-considered. Even if it works out in the long run, the way it has been done seems elitist and anti-democratic to me.
Its especially worrisome since it isn't clear to me who has the authority to make this decision, and on what basis. Hypothetically speaking, could *I* announce next week that the Discourse experiment was a failure and we're all going to move to a Reddit forum?
Well, I could announce it, but nobody would pay any attention. Why should we pay attention to this announcement? No offense to Łukasz, but how did he get put in charge of this?
If it had been put as "We want to change to Discourse, and intend to do so over the next few months. Any questions or objections?" things would have been better, but instead we get the change dumped in our lap as a fait accompli "the mailing list is dead, stop using it IMMEDIATELY, and go to Discourse".
That's not open, considerate or respectful. Maybe some people and companies treat their staff like that, but we shouldn't treat our volunteers the same way.
[1] Guido's retirement as BDFL; and the recent hostile, politically- driven bug reports and mailing list threads leading to bannings and potential burn-out of moderators.
-- Steve
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 10:16 AM Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote: [..]
Well, I could announce it, but nobody would pay any attention. Why should we pay attention to this announcement? No offense to Łukasz, but how did he get put in charge of this?
You could and everybody would pay attention.
As for Łukasz and Discourse:
(1) I remember asking Brett, Łukasz, Victor, Guido and few other core devs if we can do something to "fix" python-ideas at the previous core devs sprint (2 years ago). I also remember Guido saying that PEPs discussions on mailing lists are super hard to manage, and that he wishes we can do that on GitHub. A frustration with our mailing lists has been a known issue for many core devs for a long time.
(2) Brett has previously expressed that moderating and enforcing CoC on our mailing lists isn't a pleasant experience. Discourse provides way more tools to make discussions more manageable. Hopefully it will allow to diffuse heated discussions before anyone needs to even think about CoC.
(3) We want to try Discource now because discussions on python-ideas, python-dev, and python-committers became *unbearable* to many core devs (including myself). Most of the time I find it inconvenient to even read them, left alone engage.
(4) E-mail is clearly more convenient to *follow* the discussion to a lot core devs in this threads. Discourse, hopefully, will enable many other core developers to *want* to follow and feel *safe* to engage.
Given all the above, Łukasz *volunteered* his own time to help setup Discourse and help everyone to migrate to it so that we can all try it. When he announced that we want to try Discourse at the sprints, out of all people there I remember only Barry asking questions about email integration. Everybody else including Guido, Brett, Raymond, Victor, Mariatta, and many others were OK to try Discourse. As I can see, Łukasz himself doesn't have any interests in this migration besides trying to make our communication more enjoyable and welcoming.
Lastly, I understand everybody who likes e-mail and their e-mail clients. I'm such a person myself. Learning a completely new tool and using browser to access it isn't easy for me either. But I'm willing to try to sacrifice some of my convenience in order to see if the new medium can enable us to have more polite discussions and if core developers who don't want to engage now become comfortable to join us again.
Yury
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 09:31 Yury Selivanov <yselivanov.ml@gmail.com> wrote:
Given all the above, Łukasz *volunteered* his own time to help setup Discourse and help everyone to migrate to it so that we can all try it.
Yes. Thank-you Łukasz! :)
When he announced that we want to try Discourse at the sprints,
out of all people there I remember only Barry asking questions about email integration. Everybody else including Guido, Brett, Raymond, Victor, Mariatta, and many others were OK to try Discourse.
I expressed reservations as well, while also recognizing the benefits. I also didn't consider the impact on governance discussions, nor did I think there's be an abrupt switch nor so soon. FWIW, I don't recall being more than lukewarm on the idea (for the sake of the benefits), but didn't express strong objections because I figured that, for me personally, it would mostly be a matter of adjusting (which for me has a real cost in time and mental energy).
As I can
see, Łukasz himself doesn't have any interests in this migration besides trying to make our communication more enjoyable and welcoming.
Lastly, I understand everybody who likes e-mail and their e-mail clients. I'm such a person myself. Learning a completely new tool and using browser to access it isn't easy for me either. But I'm willing to try to sacrifice some of my convenience in order to see if the new medium can enable us to have more polite discussions
+1
The catch is that it's an imposition on folks that don't feel exactly the same way.
and if
core developers who don't want to engage now become comfortable to join us again.
That's definitely worth aiming for. However, there are real limits to how much technology can help what is essentially a people/social problem. :/
-eric
Let's say that Łukasz went a little overboard when he told everybody to abandon the mailing list right now, especially in the light of the upcoming elections (first we will vote to choose a constitution, then we'll vote according to the rules set by that constitution on the new leadership).
That said, I am fully in favor of the current experiment where we're trying to figure out whether Discourse can work for us. I have signed up myself and it's pretty easy. There were a few moments where I didn't know how to do certain things, but these were quickly resolved. I recommend everyone at least give it a try for a few days. And the admins are pretty active right now so if you ask for help you'll get it almost instantly. Will it work in the long term? We don't know yet. We'll have to give it a serious try.
But the mailing list isn't dead, and those who don't want to bother with the Discourse experiment can keep using the list. This will be an extra burden for those who feel the need to follow every discussion -- but I think it's worth it to ensure that nobody feels left behind. The people running the elections, in particular, will have to make sure that important deadlines and voting instructions are posted to the mailing list (in addition to Discourse) to ensure that we reach everyone. I will personally definitely follow both.
A bit off-topic: For something as important as these elections I think we need to use voting software, rather than relying on +1 and -1 on the list (or Discourse polls, no matter how cute they are :-), and the voting software should also send each voter reminders and instructions for upcoming votes -- but realistically we won't have working email addresses for some voters, and the list might encourage them to register their email so they'll be able to vote.
Note that there's no point in demanding that all election-related discussion happen in the mailing list -- there's always been chatter on other media such as IRC (which I myself never read), Twitter, and private email. What's happening here is important enough to non-core-devs that we'll inevitably also see outsiders debating our future in blogs, on Facebook and on Twitter. (And, alas, also on Reddit.)
The election organizers will ensure that everyone can be aware of the elections and where to get info about them. But staying informed as a voter is work, and if you care about this community, you'll have to do that work. Getting to know a new online tool isn't going to kill you.
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 08:31, Yury Selivanov <yselivanov.ml@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 10:16 AM Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote: [..]
Well, I could announce it, but nobody would pay any attention. Why should we pay attention to this announcement? No offense to Łukasz, but how did he get put in charge of this?
You could and everybody would pay attention.
As for Łukasz and Discourse:
(1) I remember asking Brett, Łukasz, Victor, Guido and few other core devs if we can do something to "fix" python-ideas at the previous core devs sprint (2 years ago). I also remember Guido saying that PEPs discussions on mailing lists are super hard to manage, and that he wishes we can do that on GitHub. A frustration with our mailing lists has been a known issue for many core devs for a long time.
(2) Brett has previously expressed that moderating and enforcing CoC on our mailing lists isn't a pleasant experience. Discourse provides way more tools to make discussions more manageable. Hopefully it will allow to diffuse heated discussions before anyone needs to even think about CoC.
I'll take this further and say that I've now reached burn-out and will be taking my annual month off from volunteering starting sometime today (I still need to write the announcement and then email all of my fellow admins on the various lists I'm in charge of before I declare my break officially on).
But these past three weeks have been hell for me. I now dread checking my email because of what's going to be there. And the fact that fighting these CoC fires on multiple mailing lists with the tools they provide have not helped to improve my situation. The difficulty in locking down threads, the fact that there is no shared burden on each of these mailing lists because they are each viewed as independent entities when it comes to administration, and the barrier for people to feel comfortable in sending an email notifying admins when they feel a post has crossed a line has shown me that we have a problem. So I definitely would like to try Discourse out so we can potentially centralize and share the burden of out-of-control threads and have it be a click of a button to report disturbing posts so we can catch problems before they spiral out of control.
Basically I'm worried we have simply gotten too big for email.
(3) We want to try Discourse now because discussions on python-ideas, python-dev, and python-committers became *unbearable* to many core devs (including myself). Most of the time I find it inconvenient to even read them, left alone engage.
Another way to think about this is if we wait until after our governance discussions and try this experiment the volume quite possibly won't be at a level to stress test how the interaction on Discourse works. And while I personally find day-to-day stuff manageable via email (but definitely not ideal), it's when the volume spikes horribly that I typically find email falls over the most. And I don't know about the rest of you, but I have not been looking forward to the governance discussions _because_ of the volume and I am too familiar with how difficult those discussions become difficult to manage via email.
Now maybe we will call this experiment quits in a month instead of three because it fails that badly, but I personally would still like to give Discourse a solid try under load to help prevent us from prematurely saying "this is no better or worse than email, so I want to stick with what I'm used to" because we are all human beings who (understandably) like the familiar, especially when it comes to something we do in our spare time.
(4) E-mail is clearly more convenient to *follow* the discussion to a lot core devs in this threads. Discourse, hopefully, will enable many other core developers to *want* to follow and feel *safe* to engage.
Given all the above, Łukasz *volunteered* his own time to help setup Discourse and help everyone to migrate to it so that we can all try it. When he announced that we want to try Discourse at the sprints, out of all people there I remember only Barry asking questions about email integration. Everybody else including Guido, Brett, Raymond, Victor, Mariatta, and many others were OK to try Discourse. As I can see, Łukasz himself doesn't have any interests in this migration besides trying to make our communication more enjoyable and welcoming.
Lastly, I understand everybody who likes e-mail and their e-mail clients. I'm such a person myself. Learning a completely new tool and using browser to access it isn't easy for me either. But I'm willing to try to sacrifice some of my convenience in order to see if the new medium can enable us to have more polite discussions and if core developers who don't want to engage now become comfortable to join us again.
I also want to point out that we ask the same things of new contributors when we ask them to learn how to manage email volume that we produce. In my PyCon US keynote ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzFWz5fiVKU&list=PL4S0lvhXvdhIV2C28Ia_DeIeloBrsQBOW&index=20&t=2936s) I make the point that a project survives by attracting new members and retaining the current ones. This can get tricky, though, when the current ones have a practice that new ones simply are not attracted to or used to. My worry is that email is continuing to become less and less something kids, recent graduates, etc. use which means we are asking them to not only start using email seriously but be also be adept at managing a massive volume of it very abruptly. And in turn I'm worried that mailing lists are a turn-off that is going to cost us more and more potential future contributors. (I would actually be curious to know how many of us have children that are teenagers or older that are active users of email for any group-level discussions instead of e.g. Slack, WhatsApp, etc. compared to those that don't.)
Now that isn't to say we should ignore what all of us current members want, and if Discourse doesn't work out because it doesn't suit our needs then I expect that will kill the idea. But I personally plan to give it a solid try, and under load if possible, so it's given a proper try under the conditions we are trying to solve for.
On Sep 29, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
Another way to think about this is if we wait until after our governance discussions and try this experiment the volume quite possibly won't be at a level to stress test how the interaction on Discourse works. And while I personally find day-to-day stuff manageable via email (but definitely not ideal), it's when the volume spikes horribly that I typically find email falls over the most. And I don't know about the rest of you, but I have not been looking forward to the governance discussions _because_ of the volume and I am too familiar with how difficult those discussions become difficult to manage via email.
I’d like to also point out that this isn’t a new idea, a year and a half ago we had the overload-sig whose idea was to solve this very thing (and Discourse was one of the options back then as well, as well as MM3, and uh… Github issues?). The results of the overload-sig were basically totally inconclusive because we never moved to the point of trying an *actual* list with *actual* traffic. So it just kind of fell to the wayside because we were never able to really test it out.
Testing out a new medium for discussion is always hard, there is a fair amount of churn involved in getting everyone to move over to the new location, thus you tend to want to try it with a small group of people to limit the impact. Unfortunately the downside to a small group of people is that they tend not to produce a large amount of email (and when it’s invite only, are less likely to need some of the more advanced moderation facilities).
So python-committers itself is still small enough that a mailing list doesn’t typically have the main problems that we’re trying to solve. However, the governance discussions give us a somewhat unique opportunity in that they’re likely going to increase the amount of discussion on this list by a fair amount. That gives us a chance to take an otherwise small list, and give it a more realistic test than it otherwise would be, without trying to tell the entirety of say, python-ideas, to switch to a new medium.
I do believe we have a problem though, and I think it is getting worse. I’ve personally more or less completely checked out of python-dev and python-ideas, in large parts because of the problems with email and mailing lists. We’re burning Brett out, and quite frankly I think that the nature of large mailing lists makes all of our discussions more likely to become heated.
With that, I urge everyone to give Discourse a fair shake for these next 3 months, and try to move as much of the discussion over there as we can. We’re unlikely to use either medium as the actual voting mechanism so if some people don’t come over, they’ll largely just miss out on discussion but will still ultimately end up able to vote. I personally am going to try to make this my last message on the mailing list during the duration of the test. I hope that you’ll all try it out as well.
I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails, some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
Victor Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> a écrit :
On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for anyone to read. Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core developers and non-core developers?
I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas forum.
I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check these just to keep up with everything.
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications, but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis, since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time I subscribed).
Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
Thanks,
Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails, some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
Victor Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> a écrit :
On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for anyone to read. Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core developers and non-core developers?
I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas forum.
I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check these just to keep up with everything.
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On 9 Oct 2018, at 03:29, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> wrote:
FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications, but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis, since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time I subscribed).
Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
I turned on mailing list mode and appear to get mail for new topics as well.
Ronald
Thanks,
Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails, some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
Victor Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> a écrit :
On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for anyone to read. Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core developers and non-core developers?
I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas forum.
I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check these just to keep up with everything.
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On 09.10.2018 05:33, Ronald Oussoren wrote:
On 9 Oct 2018, at 03:29, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> wrote:
FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications, but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis, since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time I subscribed).
Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
I turned on mailing list mode and appear to get mail for new topics as well.
I have this turned on as well, but don't get those emails.
Perhaps there's some other setting I'm missing.
Thanks.
Thanks,
Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails, some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
Victor Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> a écrit :
On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for anyone to read. Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core developers and non-core developers?
I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas forum.
I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check these just to keep up with everything.
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ > Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ > Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
On a specific category page, in the top right you can select a watch level for the whole category, the two relevant ones for you will be either “Watching” which will default all new topics in a category to watching or “first post”, which won’t set them to watching, but will email you for *only* the first post in any new topic, unless you set a topic to watching after that.
On Oct 8, 2018, at 9:29 PM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> wrote:
FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications, but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis, since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time I subscribed).
Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
Thanks,
Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails, some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
Victor Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> a écrit :
On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for anyone to read. Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core developers and non-core developers?
I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas forum.
I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check these just to keep up with everything.
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Thank you! I hadn't noticed this setting and it will be helpful.
Regards
Antoine.
Le 09/10/2018 à 14:24, Donald Stufft a écrit :
On a specific category page, in the top right you can select a watch level for the whole category, the two relevant ones for you will be either “Watching” which will default all new topics in a category to watching or “first post”, which won’t set them to watching, but will email you for *only* the first post in any new topic, unless you set a topic to watching after that.
On Oct 8, 2018, at 9:29 PM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> wrote:
FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications, but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis, since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time I subscribed).
Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
Thanks,
Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails, some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
Victor Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> a écrit :
On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for anyone to read. Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core developers and non-core developers?
I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas forum.
I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check these just to keep up with everything.
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ > Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ > Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On 09.10.2018 08:24, Donald Stufft wrote:
On a specific category page, in the top right you can select a watch level for the whole category, the two relevant ones for you will be either “Watching” which will default all new topics in a category to watching or “first post”, which won’t set them to watching, but will email you for *only* the first post in any new topic, unless you set a topic to watching after that.
Thanks, I'll give that a try.
On Oct 8, 2018, at 9:29 PM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> wrote:
FYI: I did sign up on Discourse and have enabled email notifications, but it seems that you have to do this on a per forum entry basis, since I have not received any notifications for the newer entries (only ones for the ones which were already available at the time I subscribed).
Is there a way to get notifications for all new topics as well ?
Thanks,
Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
On 08.10.2018 16:44, Victor Stinner wrote:
I saw some complains against Discourse (some people prefer emails, some people didn't the bad timing with discussions on the new governance, etc.), but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Where should we discuss governance PEPs? Since it was unclear to me, I posted me PEP 8015 to discuss.python.org and to python-committers... And now we can enjoy discussions splitted between the two :-)
Victor Le sam. 29 sept. 2018 à 09:50, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> a écrit :
On 29.09.2018 03:21, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 15:03, Victor Stinner <vstinner@redhat.com> wrote:
It seems like anyone can subscribe. Is the Committer group reserved to core developers? If yes, how do you know which accounts are linked to core developers?
You must be approved to join python-committers, but its archive is public for anyone to read. Does Discourse provide the same level of access for core developers and non-core developers?
I hope it does, since otherwise python-committers is not only moving to discourse, but also losing its functionality as forum for core developers. We'd just have another python-dev or python-ideas forum.
I've never used Discourse. Does it allow to subscribe in a way that I can still get emails for the discussions or is it browser only ?
If the latter, then I'm pretty much out of the game, since I live in email and cannot have 10 browser tabs open and regularly check these just to keep up with everything.
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Sep 29 2018)
> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ > Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ > Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Services directly from the Experts
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/
On Oct 9, 2018, at 8:30 AM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal@egenix.com> wrote:
On 09.10.2018 08:24, Donald Stufft wrote:
On a specific category page, in the top right you can select a watch level for the whole category, the two relevant ones for you will be either “Watching” which will default all new topics in a category to watching or “first post”, which won’t set them to watching, but will email you for *only* the first post in any new topic, unless you set a topic to watching after that.
Thanks, I'll give that a try.
One thing to clarify— Changing that setting will only apply to *new* topics in that category. It basically lets you set a category specific default for the notification level of new topics. Once the topic has been created that setting has no effect which allows you to adjust your notification level on a per topic basis after the fact. If for instance you default to watching, but a noisy thread happens you don’t care about, you can just unwatch that particular thread.
29.09.18 00:45, Łukasz Langa пише:
Hello committers, since this got pretty long, here's the tl;dr:
- we're at the point where it is hard to make mailing lists work for us;
- we're switching to Discourse; it's better in many ways;
- go to https://discuss.python.org/ and create your account there;
- please do not post to python-committers for the remainder of the year to give Discourse a real shot.
Does it support NNTP?
On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:04, Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> wrote:
Does it support NNTP?
Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
- Ł
On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:45, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
Yes, I use NNTP to read many of the Python mailing lists. Gmane, even in its current state, is fantastic.
I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not necessarily at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current developers. Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab syndrome. It’s an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit cavalier to shut down python-committers without further discussion.
Cheers, -Barry
+1
If someone can tell me how to configure discourse to work like a mailing list; specifically:
- email me messsages rather than 'X new messages" nuisance-mails
- work sanely with replies-from-mail
then I'm certainly happy to adapt.
-Rob On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 13:19, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:45, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
Yes, I use NNTP to read many of the Python mailing lists. Gmane, even in its current state, is fantastic.
I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not necessarily at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current developers. Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab syndrome. It’s an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit cavalier to shut down python-committers without further discussion.
Cheers, -Barry
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Log into your account, go into preferences, enable Mailing List Mode.
On Sep 29, 2018, at 3:51 AM, Robert Collins <robertc@robertcollins.net> wrote:
+1
If someone can tell me how to configure discourse to work like a mailing list; specifically:
- email me messsages rather than 'X new messages" nuisance-mails
- work sanely with replies-from-mail
then I'm certainly happy to adapt.
-Rob On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 13:19, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:45, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
Yes, I use NNTP to read many of the Python mailing lists. Gmane, even in its current state, is fantastic.
I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not necessarily at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current developers. Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab syndrome. It’s an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit cavalier to shut down python-committers without further discussion.
Cheers, -Barry
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On Sat., 29 Sep. 2018, 11:19 am Barry Warsaw, <barry@python.org> wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:45, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
Yes, I use NNTP to read many of the Python mailing lists. Gmane, even in its current state, is fantastic.
I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not necessarily at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current developers. Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab syndrome. It’s an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit cavalier to shut down python-committers without further discussion.
Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily impact the future of python-dev.
This is exactly the kind of arbitrary decision making by an insufficiently representative group that led to us banning making any binding decisions at language summits: their in-person nature means that they're inherently exclusive environments that lead to requirements being overlooked and decisions being made without involving most of the people affected.
Regards, Nick.
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 06:53:58PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On Sat., 29 Sep. 2018, 11:19 am Barry Warsaw, <barry@python.org> wrote:
I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not necessarily at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current developers. Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab syndrome. It’s an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit cavalier to shut down python-committers without further discussion.
Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily impact the future of python-dev.
Indeed.
This is exactly the kind of arbitrary decision making by an insufficiently representative group that led to us banning making any binding decisions at language summits: their in-person nature means that they're inherently exclusive environments that lead to requirements being overlooked and decisions being made without involving most of the people affected.
I'm surprised how decisions are made on summits as well.
It's quite telling that already 6 core devs, most of whom have contributed huge amounts of code, apparently have not been at that exclusive summit and have indicated that they are uncomfortable with that decision.
Stefan Krah
On Sep 29, 2018, at 09:53, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily impact the future of python-dev.
Ironically it's the very gravity of those upcoming discussions that made us decide to move fast on this.
Part of why we are in this mess in the first place is due to inadequate moderation controls available on mailing lists and the way they invite thundering herds of answers and the combinatorial explosion of posts in trees of discussion. The PEP 572 process exercised this painfully well.
Discourse is a chance to address the problems that contributed to the BDFL stepping down.
arbitrary decision making ... insufficiently representative group ... without involving most of the people affected ...
Hold on. Out of the 30-something committers active in the past two releases, 20-something were at the sprint. (I can pull more detailed stats but I'm on the phone now.) Setting up Discourse with the intent of replacing the mailing lists met no opposition at the sprint. By all counts, the group was sufficiently representative and involved most of the people affected.
I would prefer for everybody to be there, of course. Some decided against it, some could not be there even though they wanted to. This is unfortunate. But if you have committer unanimity in mind, that's not something that was feasible regardless of the forum.
- Ł
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 10:40:02AM +0100, Łukasz Langa wrote:
Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily impact the future of python-dev.
Ironically it's the very gravity of those upcoming discussions that made us decide to move fast on this.
Sorry if I misunderstand this, but is the plan to moderate *core developers* on python-committers?
Stefan Krah
On Sep 29, 2018, at 10:44, Stefan Krah <stefan@bytereef.org> wrote:
Sorry if I misunderstand this, but is the plan to moderate *core developers* on python-committers?
If you label it with an abstract term like this, it sounds like we just formed the Python Thought Police ;-)
But think about the concrete examples of moderation and discussion flow that are going to be useful:
- ability to link between topics
- ability to see if somebody is actively replying on something you are also replying to
- ability to edit your own post afterwards for clarity, typos, sending mishaps
- ability to move topics around to where they belong better
- ability to close a topic (no more replies) to indicate for example: "this is about a resolved issue", "this is about an outdated version of the PEP"
- ability to make multiple quotes in a single post (which correctly link back for broader context)
- ability to collapse out-of-band replies in a topic
I could go on. In other words, unless the conversation REALLY gets heated, I doubt we will have to involve the code of conduct working group. But moderation and flow control is much more than banning abuse.
- Ł
Le 29/09/2018 à 12:00, Łukasz Langa a écrit :
On Sep 29, 2018, at 10:44, Stefan Krah <stefan@bytereef.org> wrote:
Sorry if I misunderstand this, but is the plan to moderate *core developers* on python-committers?
If you label it with an abstract term like this, it sounds like we just formed the Python Thought Police ;-)
But think about the concrete examples of moderation and discussion flow that are going to be useful:
- ability to link between topics
- ability to see if somebody is actively replying on something you are also replying to
- ability to edit your own post afterwards for clarity, typos, sending mishaps
Note this particular one *might* be a misfeature if someone edits their posting significantly after someone else already replied. I expect Discourse to mention that the post was edited, but it can still be confusing or misleading.
Now I hope this wouldn't happen for core developer discussions, but I can see it easily happening in heated "ideas" discussions.
On the more general idea of Discourse, I'm all for experimenting as I do agree with the advantages you mention. Like Serhiy I also like my Gmane workflow, but Gmane has worked less and less well recently, and admins basically don't respond anymore (for example, it's become impossible to start posting to new mailing-lists, since the autoresponder doesn't work anymore). I *am* worried, though, that the way this is being done is gonna exclude some core developers at a critical moment where we do want everyone included. I would rather have had this happen after governance is decided on.
Regards
Antoine.
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 12:11:12PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On the more general idea of Discourse, I'm all for experimenting as I do agree with the advantages you mention. Like Serhiy I also like my Gmane workflow, but Gmane has worked less and less well recently, and admins basically don't respond anymore (for example, it's become impossible to start posting to new mailing-lists, since the autoresponder doesn't work anymore).
A couple of years ago http://news.individual.net/index.php (maintained by FU-Berlin (university)) worked well.
It's not free though (EUR 10,- per year).
Stefan Krah
Le 29/09/2018 à 13:55, Stefan Krah a écrit :
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 12:11:12PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On the more general idea of Discourse, I'm all for experimenting as I do agree with the advantages you mention. Like Serhiy I also like my Gmane workflow, but Gmane has worked less and less well recently, and admins basically don't respond anymore (for example, it's become impossible to start posting to new mailing-lists, since the autoresponder doesn't work anymore).
A couple of years ago http://news.individual.net/index.php (maintained by FU-Berlin (university)) worked well.
Does it provide mailing-list mirrors? It's not obvious by the description.
Regards
Antoine.
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 02:01:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
A couple of years ago http://news.individual.net/index.php (maintained by FU-Berlin (university)) worked well.
Does it provide mailing-list mirrors? It's not obvious by the description.
Ah yes, it only has comp.lang.python <==> python-list, which is useless of course:
ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/doc/news/fu-berlin/active
My good memories of the service were for other groups like sci.crypt.
Stefan Krah
On Sep 29, 2018, at 6:00 AM, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
On Sep 29, 2018, at 10:44, Stefan Krah <stefan@bytereef.org> wrote:
Sorry if I misunderstand this, but is the plan to moderate *core developers* on python-committers?
If you label it with an abstract term like this, it sounds like we just formed the Python Thought Police ;-)
But think about the concrete examples of moderation and discussion flow that are going to be useful:
- ability to link between topics
- ability to see if somebody is actively replying on something you are also replying to
- ability to edit your own post afterwards for clarity, typos, sending mishaps
- ability to move topics around to where they belong better
- ability to close a topic (no more replies) to indicate for example: "this is about a resolved issue", "this is about an outdated version of the PEP"
- ability to make multiple quotes in a single post (which correctly link back for broader context)
- ability to collapse out-of-band replies in a topic
I could go on. In other words, unless the conversation REALLY gets heated, I doubt we will have to involve the code of conduct working group. But moderation and flow control is much more than banning abuse.
I’d also say that perhaps it’s less required on python-committers due to the invite only nature of the list (though I don’t think we’re immune here either). But as I understand it, one of the goals if the experiment works out well here, is to expand the lists that we move onto discourse to ones that are not invite only. In that regard, even if we never need the ability to manage inappropriate behavior on python-committers, we likey will at some point on the more public lists from time to time.
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 11:00:48AM +0100, Łukasz Langa wrote:
Sorry if I misunderstand this, but is the plan to moderate *core developers* on python-committers?
If you label it with an abstract term like this, it sounds like we just formed the Python Thought Police ;-)
Well, it gets worse. :-)
I mean, moving the list *just* before the election and having a simultaneous discussion about who is considered a core developer might evoke associations with gerrymandering away the non-active people, who are probably more likely not to move to discourse or even miss this thread.
You can all have the best motives, but I'm really taken aback by these developments. Has this concern not been mentioned at the summit?
Perhaps that is what you get if only recently active devs are invited.
I strongly suggest that the vote-eligibility and governance discussions take place here.
Stefan Krah
On 29.09.2018 11:40, Łukasz Langa wrote:
On Sep 29, 2018, at 09:53, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily impact the future of python-dev.
Ironically it's the very gravity of those upcoming discussions that made us decide to move fast on this.
Part of why we are in this mess in the first place is due to inadequate moderation controls available on mailing lists and the way they invite thundering herds of answers and the combinatorial explosion of posts in trees of discussion. The PEP 572 process exercised this painfully well.
Discourse is a chance to address the problems that contributed to the BDFL stepping down.
Hold on. The group of core developers is rather limited in size. I would understand such a move for e.g. python-ideas, but much less so for the committers list.
I'm not opposed to trying Discourse, but don't think the timing is good to fork off discussions to yet another medium. This creates more noise than necessary and diverts discussions away from what we should really be concerned about, namely our model of decision making for PEP discussions which don't come out with a clear direction and a model of how to steer the overarching direction of where Python will go in the coming decades.
arbitrary decision making ... insufficiently representative group ... without involving most of the people affected ...
Hold on. Out of the 30-something committers active in the past two releases, 20-something were at the sprint. (I can pull more detailed stats but I'm on the phone now.) Setting up Discourse with the intent of replacing the mailing lists met no opposition at the sprint. By all counts, the group was sufficiently representative and involved most of the people affected.
Ouch. So those 20 core devs got to decide for whoever else considers themselves a core developer and at the same time fixed the very definition of who is allowed to vote and who is not without asking the complete set of core developers ?
The reality is that we're a remote working group, so while in person meetings are nice and can seed new ideas, we do have to take into account that people not present at those meetings do have a stake in Python as core developers as well.
I would prefer for everybody to be there, of course. Some decided against it, some could not be there even though they wanted to. This is unfortunate. But if you have committer unanimity in mind, that's not something that was feasible regardless of the forum.
I don't think we're discussing unanimity here, but democratic basics, i.e. who has a stake in Python, who will be heard in discussions and who has voting rights.
On the https://discuss.python.org/t/which-list-of-core-developers-is-authoritative/... posting, you summarize a discussion we've had here on the ML, but leave out parts such as the emeritus discussion (which AFAIR concluded in making this based on whether a core dev wants to switch to that role rather than making this based on PRs and Github activity), it also makes it look like we agreed on just giving "active" core devs voting rights in the governance discussions, which is not the case.
This is a typical situation you run into with forum postings. The top posting often receives more attention and is seen as summary of the whole discussion. Unless the top poster updates the posting to reflect the outcome of the discussion below, this can easily to misinterpretations.
In email discussions, such summaries are created after the discussions (eg. as PEP), which avoids such misinterpretations.
To avoid the same on Discourse, we'd need to have a common understanding to keep the top posting updated to where the discussion is going.
Regarding the topic of voting rights: Since we have never really had to vote on anything, the only democratic approach is to give everyone listed as core developer voting rights.
Limiting this to an arbitrary definition of "active" is not democratic, since the definition of "active" represents a way to introduce representations, which we can, of course, have, but only after having elected those representatives.
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
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On Sat., 29 Sep. 2018, 7:40 pm Łukasz Langa, <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
On Sep 29, 2018, at 09:53, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily impact the future of python-dev.
Ironically it's the very gravity of those upcoming discussions that made us decide to move fast on this.
Part of why we are in this mess in the first place is due to inadequate moderation controls available on mailing lists and the way they invite thundering herds of answers and the combinatorial explosion of posts in trees of discussion. The PEP 572 process exercised this painfully well.
This is not a problem that applies to python-committers, since there are less than a hundred people on the planet with permission to post to it.
Discourse is a chance to address the problems that contributed to the BDFL stepping down.
For the generally accessible mailing lists, I agree completely, and if this had been a post to core-workflow saying "We want to experiment with closing python-ideas and moving it to a Discourse forum", I would been an enthusiastic +1. The same goes for core-mentorship: I think we've given MM3 a fair go there, and my conclusion is that while it does improve several aspects of the moderation process over MM2, it's still much weaker on that front than Discourse.
That isn't what happened: the *first* I heard about this idea was a peremptory *order* to say that I had to move *now*, which isn't how the system works. Even when Guido was BDFL he wouldn't have been able to declare "We're dropping the mailing lists and switching to web forums" and make it stick - we'd have told him to write a PEP and make his case, just like anyone else (akin to Mariatta's current excellent PEP laying out the pros and cons of switching to a different issue tracker).
The closest equivalent I can think of would be when python-committers was split out from python-dev (so that subscribing to python-dev could be made optional), and even then most of the critical announcements continued to be cross-posted to python-dev, and the discussions themselves didn't move.
arbitrary decision making
...
insufficiently representative group
...
without involving most of the people affected
...
Hold on. Out of the 30-something committers active in the past two releases, 20-something were at the sprint. (I can pull more detailed stats but I'm on the phone now.) Setting up Discourse with the intent of replacing the mailing lists met no opposition at the sprint. By all counts, the group was *sufficiently* representative and involved *most* of the people affected.
The governance discussions affect, and need to involve *all* committers, not just the currently active ones.
One particular reason why I consider the group at in-person events to be inherently insufficiently representative is that I was a core developer for more than five years before I ever met another core dev in person, and during that time I felt fully included in the decision making process.
I think that's less true now, and part of the reason for it is that more discussions are taking place in contexts where the only folks present are those in a position to devote several work days to CPython related travel. Accounting for the opinions, perspectives, and feelings of those that aren't present only happens through the deliberate effort of those that are in the room.
From 2011 to 2017, that "in the room" group pretty consistently included me, since Red Hat were very permissive when it came to allowing time for that kind of thing, and the PSF was willing to compensate for RH's reluctance to provide travel funding.
But I never forgot what I'd needed to feel included in the process before that job change, so I constantly asked myself not "who's here?" but rather "Who *isn't* here?", and advocated for approaches that lessened the gap between those two groups (most importantly: in-person events being for high bandwidth discussions that would subsequently be summarised in writing, not final decisions that would be handed down with no further asynchronous online discussion to be entered into)
I would prefer for everybody to be there, of course. Some decided against it, some could not be there even though they wanted to. This is unfortunate. But if you have committer unanimity in mind, that's not something that was feasible regardless of the forum.
No, it isn't about unanimity, it's about ensuring that folks have the opportunity to be heard, rather than being explicitly told "You weren't there at the time, so your point of view is irrelevant".
Red Hat had a good phrase for this in their Open Decision Making [1] framework: affected associates may still be disappointed by an outcome, but they shouldn't be surprised by it.
In this case I was surprised twice over:
- a core workflow change was proposed and implemented without even being mentioned on the core-workflow mailing list
- the first I heard about it on python-committers was this peremptory order to move, rather than an informational post describing the discussion that was had at the sprints, and the potential problems the proposal was aiming to solve
Now, if folks working on governance PEPs want to receive feedback through a more structured forum than the python-committers mailing list offers, I think that's an entirely reasonable request, but the approach I would propose to tackle that is to add a section to PEP 8000 saying:
- a cpython-governance subforum will be set up on discuss.python.org
- a service account will be set up so all traffic in that subforum is mirrored to python-committers
Actually posting to the discussions would require going to the forum site, but nothing would need to change if just reading them.
That doesn't require changing the requirements for maintaining core commit access the way the proposal at the start of this thread does, while still avoiding the need to wrangle governance threads directly on the mailing list.
Regards, Nick.
[1] https://opensource.com/open-organization/resources/open-decision-framework
- Ł
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 1:53 AM, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
This is exactly the kind of arbitrary decision making by an insufficiently representative group that led to us banning making any binding decisions at language summits: their in-person nature means that they're inherently exclusive environments that lead to requirements being overlooked and decisions being made without involving most of the people affected.
Did you see Brett's email here, especially the last few paragraphs?
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2018-September/006100.ht...
I don't know how the Discourse experiment will turn out, and I know it won't make everyone happy, but I hope it works. Because we *know* that what we're doing now is making people miserable and driving them away. The push to try Discourse may or may not be misguided, but it's not coming out of a few people having a whim over lunch together.
-n
P.S.: I found that link using my usual method for finding mailing list archive links, which is: first I did a search in my local MUA, found the email I wanted, noted the date, then manually went to the mailing list archives and clicked through the messages around that date until I found it. This *sucks*.
-- Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 11:04, Nathaniel Smith <njs@pobox.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 1:53 AM, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
This is exactly the kind of arbitrary decision making by an insufficiently representative group that led to us banning making any binding decisions at language summits: their in-person nature means that they're inherently exclusive environments that lead to requirements being overlooked and decisions being made without involving most of the people affected.
Did you see Brett's email here, especially the last few paragraphs?
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2018-September/006100.ht...
I don't know how the Discourse experiment will turn out, and I know it won't make everyone happy, but I hope it works. Because we *know* that what we're doing now is making people miserable and driving them away. The push to try Discourse may or may not be misguided, but it's not coming out of a few people having a whim over lunch together.
Who's "we"? I thought I was part of "we" when it came to the Python core dev team...
P.S.: I found that link using my usual method for finding mailing list archive links, which is: first I did a search in my local MUA, found the email I wanted, noted the date, then manually went to the mailing list archives and clicked through the messages around that date until I found it. This *sucks*.
But at least it was *possible*. Personally I do a Google search rather than using my MUA, but the point is that while it's clumsy, it's known technology. I don't even know how I'd find a link to an old message in Discourse, but I assume it's not searchable via Google? Sure, I can learn. But how about a member of the general public (after all, python-committers is supposed to be restricted for posting, but publicly visible)?
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 10:40, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
Hold on. Out of the 30-something committers active in the past two releases, 20-something were at the sprint. (I can pull more detailed stats but I'm on the phone now.) Setting up Discourse with the intent of replacing the mailing lists met no opposition at the sprint. By all counts, the group was sufficiently representative and involved most of the people affected.
Hold on in return. Are committers *not* active in the past two releases not considered? Your figures seem biased. (Was I part of that 30? I committed some changes in the last 2 releases. Barely anything, and I do *not* consider myself very active in terms of code changes, but how many tiers are we working with here? People who were at the sprints, people "active in the past 2 releases", "the rest"?
I don't want to seem to accuse people of agendas - everyone's acting in the best interests of the community - but it does feel like the community is fragmenting at the moment :-(
Paul
On Sep 29, 2018, at 6:24 AM, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
But at least it was *possible*. Personally I do a Google search rather than using my MUA, but the point is that while it's clumsy, it's known technology. I don't even know how I'd find a link to an old message in Discourse, but I assume it's not searchable via Google? Sure, I can learn. But how about a member of the general public (after all, python-committers is supposed to be restricted for posting, but publicly visible)?
Discourse is perfectly searchable using Google in exactly the same way as Mailman archives. It also has built in search.
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 11:29, Donald Stufft <donald@stufft.io> wrote:
Discourse is perfectly searchable using Google in exactly the same way as Mailman archives.
Cool.
It also has built in search.
Somewhat less relevant - I assumed that but "most people" won't use that, they'll use Google. Paul
On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:24, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
Are committers *not* active in the past two releases not considered? Your figures seem biased. (Was I part of that 30? I committed some changes in the last 2 releases. Barely anything, and I do *not* consider myself very active in terms of code changes, but how many tiers are we working with here? People who were at the sprints, people "active in the past 2 releases", "the rest"?
There is discussion *just* about this here: https://discuss.python.org/t/which-list-of-core-developers-is-authoritative/...
- Ł
Le 29/09/2018 à 12:44, Łukasz Langa a écrit :
On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:24, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com <mailto:p.f.moore@gmail.com>> wrote:
Are committers *not* active in the past two releases not considered? Your figures seem biased. (Was I part of that 30? I committed some changes in the last 2 releases. Barely anything, and I do *not* consider myself very active in terms of code changes, but how many tiers are we working with here? People who were at the sprints, people "active in the past 2 releases", "the rest"?
There is discussion *just* about this here: https://discuss.python.org/t/which-list-of-core-developers-is-authoritative/... <https://discuss.python.org/t/which-list-of-core-developers-is-authoritative/55?u=ambv>
It would be nice not to mingle different concerns, though. We may want to have a discussion over what an "active" core developer is (and perhaps reach an official decision if desired), but in the meantime we should avoid using the "active / inactive" distinction when discussing who can voice their opinion on topics such as communication tools.
Regards
Antoine.
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 11:44, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
On Sep 29, 2018, at 11:24, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
Are committers *not* active in the past two releases not considered? Your figures seem biased. (Was I part of that 30? I committed some changes in the last 2 releases. Barely anything, and I do *not* consider myself very active in terms of code changes, but how many tiers are we working with here? People who were at the sprints, people "active in the past 2 releases", "the rest"?
There is discussion *just* about this here: https://discuss.python.org/t/which-list-of-core-developers-is-authoritative/...
Isn't that just a restart of the conversation that happened on this list not too long ago (prompted by a question from MAL, IIRC) but missing the context of that previous question, and with less participants (so far)?
Paul
On Sep 29, 2018, at 12:02, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't that just a restart of the conversation that happened on this list not too long ago (prompted by a question from MAL, IIRC) but missing the context of that previous question, and with less participants (so far)?
Did you read it? I address this in the original post. I even link to the committers discussion.
The context is not missed but different.
- Ł
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 12:06, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
On Sep 29, 2018, at 12:02, Paul Moore <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't that just a restart of the conversation that happened on this list not too long ago (prompted by a question from MAL, IIRC) but missing the context of that previous question, and with less participants (so far)?
Did you read it? I address this in the original post. I even link to the committers discussion.
The context is not missed but different.
I thought I did, but I've reached a point where I'm struggling to follow the various threads and posts. At the moment, I've burned out on trying to cope with both email (for all my non python-committers emails) and Discourse, so I'm struggling to follow discussions. I'll probably stop following python-contributors for the rest of the day, and hope I can catch up on what I missed tomorrow.
I consider that a negative indication of the usability of Discourse for me, but I'm willing to mark it down as "early days" for now.
Apologies for misreading the mail in that thread.
For the record, and adding it here because I'm done with Discourse for the day, I consider myself a core Python developer, and I am proud to do so - I enjoy being able to say that. I'm *not* particularly active in terms of commits - there are a number of reasons for that (other commitments, struggling to keep up with the details of the CPython workflow, ...) but it's a reality. However, I *do* contribute a lot to discussions, as I always have, and I feel a great responsibility to do that "as a core developer" and always try to ensure that my posts in that context are for the benefit of the language. I would fight to retain my right to call myself a "core Python developer", with the same implications as anyone else (I do *not* want to call myself "Emeritus" or "Inactive" or any of the other terms previously mentioned for "not contributing much these days").
I would feel very disappointed and rejected if it became the case because I didn't commit actual code, and I don't attend conferences/sprints, that my views were ignored or under-represented. I'm concerned already that it's becoming harder and harder to be heard in the core dev community. I'd really like it if experiments like Discord made it *easier* for people to be heard and represented - but I fear that they won't, and the voices of people with real life commitments that make working with forum software harder will be lost (and not having a good way for people to communicate "I can't effectively communicate via this new mechanism" is a particularly pernicious way of losing people's input).
I'll catch up with discussions again in a day or two. For now, I need to go and read my emails :-) (Yeah, that's a joke - I really need to go and hang out with my family).
Paul
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 09:57, Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat., 29 Sep. 2018, 11:19 am Barry Warsaw, <barry@python.org> wrote:
On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:45, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
Yes, I use NNTP to read many of the Python mailing lists. Gmane, even in its current state, is fantastic.
I’m all for supporting the next generation of developers, but not necessarily at the expense of *decades* of established workflow for current developers. Moving to Discourse breaks this and proliferates browser tab syndrome. It’s an experiment worth conducting, but I do think it’s a bit cavalier to shut down python-committers without further discussion.
Especially on the eve of critical governance discussions that will heavily impact the future of python-dev.
This is exactly the kind of arbitrary decision making by an insufficiently representative group that led to us banning making any binding decisions at language summits: their in-person nature means that they're inherently exclusive environments that lead to requirements being overlooked and decisions being made without involving most of the people affected.
Strong +1. We've yet to see most of the governance PEPs, and now it's looking like the people involved in debating them will be hampered by struggling with a new communication medium as well? And the new medium was announced as a completely out of the blue surprise to most of us?
Suggestion: We mandate that all discussion on governance must remain on the mailing list, and discussion on Discourse will be banned. That way, no-one who is in the process of switching and doesn't yet feel comfortable with the new medium will feel disenfranchised.
Paul
29.09.18 03:45, Łukasz Langa пише:
On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:04, Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> wrote: Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
Yes, I do. I read all Python-related mailing list via the Gmane gate. It is convenient in case of large discussions, when I can read selected branches and ignore others. The great advantage of NNTP is that it provides access to past discussions. I can read Python-Dev discussions back from 1999.
We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
Would be nice. It would be even better if provide the own NNTP gate and avoid depending on third-party services.
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 1:51 AM, Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> wrote:
29.09.18 03:45, Łukasz Langa пише:
On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:04, Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
Yes, I do. I read all Python-related mailing list via the Gmane gate. It is convenient in case of large discussions, when I can read selected branches and ignore others. The great advantage of NNTP is that it provides access to past discussions. I can read Python-Dev discussions back from 1999.
The reason the general public has settled on web forums rather than mailing lists is basically that web forums give you many of the advantages of NNTP -- including first-class access to archives, replying to threads that predate your arrival, muting topics, the ability to skim the topic list before downloading everything, etc. -- without the need to install specialized software. Of course it's not going to be the same as your favorite NNTP client that you've spent a decade tweaking, but it might be worth giving it a try?
That said, there is this:
https://github.com/sman591/discourse-nntp-bridge
No idea how usable it is in practice, but apparently it works for at least one person...
-n
-- Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 10:24, Nathaniel Smith <njs@pobox.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 1:51 AM, Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> wrote:
29.09.18 03:45, Łukasz Langa пише:
On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:04, Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
Yes, I do. I read all Python-related mailing list via the Gmane gate. It is convenient in case of large discussions, when I can read selected branches and ignore others. The great advantage of NNTP is that it provides access to past discussions. I can read Python-Dev discussions back from 1999.
The reason the general public has settled on web forums rather than mailing lists is basically that web forums give you many of the advantages of NNTP -- including first-class access to archives, replying to threads that predate your arrival, muting topics, the ability to skim the topic list before downloading everything, etc. -- without the need to install specialized software. Of course it's not going to be the same as your favorite NNTP client that you've spent a decade tweaking, but it might be worth giving it a try?
I don't use NNTP, but this is simply wrong. Forums miss one of the most significant advantages of NNTP - namely, the choice of client enabled by having a standardised protocol.
Paul
On 9/29/2018 4:51 AM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
29.09.18 03:45, Łukasz Langa пише:
(To paraphrase) 'We' are switching committers-list to Discourse.
Who is this 'we'? I don't remember any discussion, let alone a vote.
On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:04, Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> wrote: Do you use NNTP? Like with IRC, you won't find the next generation of core developers on it. And no, there is no support for it in Discourse.
Yes, I do. I read all Python-related mailing list via the Gmane gate. It is convenient in case of large discussions, when I can read selected branches and ignore others. The great advantage of NNTP is that it provides access to past discussions. I can read Python-Dev discussions back from 1999.
Like Barry and Serhiy and perhaps others, I use gmane for all python lists I follow with a gmane mirror. At least with Thunderbird, I generally find it far superior to to the list interface: each list/group automatically goes is a separate directory; only subject lines are auto-downloaded*; I can choose to only see unread subject lines; I can set an auto-purge time.
- I now download and read less than half of python-list and python-ideas. When I am done with a batch, shift-C marks the rest as 'read' and therefore invisible unless I choose to see all unpurged articles.
When the gmane search page worked, it was much better than mailman's month-by-month search. Perhaps Discourse fixes this.
We could probably figure something out with Gmane if there's interest.
There definitely is, but ...
Would be nice. It would be even better if provide the own NNTP gate and avoid depending on third-party services.
Agreed.
I just wanted to add that while I was not involved in the Discourse discussions at the sprint (and didn't realise there were "discussions" going on), and while I would have been opposed to such a drastic change, my first impressions of discuss.python.org are good.
Things that I have configured to make it better for me: then please don't email me :) )
- secure password and 2FA with an authenticator app
- my default landing page is "latest" not "categories"
- muted the categories I'm not interested in
- disabled direct messages (you can email me; if you don't know how,
- disabled email notifications, except the once per week when I haven't logged in (we'll see whether I change that after a week...)
Things that I just like:
- like button, rather than +1 emails (and you can disable the notifications for this)
- Ctrl+V to paste images into a message
- good mobile layout - doesn't try to do fancy stuff that fails on phones
- transitions between pages are smooth, and drafts are auto-saved (I haven't really wanted more than one tab open yet)
- mentions (my email filtering rules prioritised the lists, so they never came direct - but I should notice actual mentions more quickly now)
So I'm fairly happy to try it out for a while. I'm interested to see whether it works better for PEP discussions (oh I want Google Wave back so badly sometimes!) and if we can migrate things like the buildbot-status list (one thread per configuration might be nice).
Not entirely comfortable with declaring the mailing list "dead" so quickly, but I know for infrastructure stuff it's sometimes hard to get community momentum without just doing it.
Cheers, Steve
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
There is a user trust system where proven community members get more power in time, for example to fix typos and move topics to a better category.
Will committers start out as "proven," or will we need to "re-prove" ourselves to gain additional privileges? How is the trust evaluation bootstrapped in Python's case, and who can confer additional trust (e.g. can it be non-committers, etc)?
*CALL TO ACTION*
We'd like to heavily test this new forum. As such, I would like to ask you to *NOT USE* python-committers for the remainder of the year and direct all conversation to Discourse.
I hope this thread about transitioning is exempt from this call to action! :)
--Chris
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
Hello committers, since this got pretty long, here's the tl;dr:
- we're at the point where it is hard to make mailing lists work for us;
- we're switching to Discourse; it's better in many ways;
- go to https://discuss.python.org/ and create your account there;
- please do not post to python-committers for the remainder of the year to give Discourse a real shot.
And now the long version.
*What's the issue?* During the core sprint in Redmond we discussed how we discuss. The overwhelming feel is that we have reached the limits of what is possible with mailing lists. We identified e-mail as a contributor to some of the problems we're dealing with now. To fix more and whine less, I talked with everybody in Redmond about a possible replacement for the trusty mailing list. We identified one: Discourse.
*What is it?* Discourse is forum software started in 2013 by Jeff Atwood, Robin Ward, and Sam Saffron. It's used by many large scale open source projects and companies, including Github Atom, Twitter Developers, Rust, Kotlin, Elixir, Docker, Codeacademy, Patreon, EVE Online, and Imgur. It's open source (Ruby, GPL2), it supports plugins and has an API.
*Why is it better than e-mail?* It's both a Web app and a terrific mobile application. It supports regular flat conversational threads and collapsible replies. There is community moderation where users can flag inappropriate messages to notify moderators, moderators and authors can lock topics, move discussions between categories, archive things that are no longer applicable, and so on.
You can edit posts, quote posts, link between posts, add rich media, code snippets with syntax highlighting, there's Markdown support. You can still use it via e-mail similarly to how GitHub notifications work. See: https://meta.discourse.org/t/set-up-reply-via-email-support/14003
There is a user trust system where proven community members get more power in time, for example to fix typos and move topics to a better category.
There's much more: dynamic notifications, topic summaries, emojis, spam blocking, single sing-on, two-factor authentication, social login support, and so on. Read: https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email- mailing-lists/54298.
*What about Zulip?* Zulip is chat software which some of us find useful but its UI is proving to be challenging for many of us, the mobile application leaves a lot to be desired, and it did not end up moving discussions out of the mailing lists. I see Zulip as replacement for IRC whereas Discourse is replacement for mailing lists (or both; we'll see!).
*Where do I sign up?* Create an account at https://discuss.python.org/. You'll recognize the set up as essentially mirroring the main mailing lists:
- Committers
- Users
- Ideas There's also Discourse-specific sections:
- Discourse Feedback (post here if things don't work like you'd like)
- Discourse Staff (hidden category for moderators and admins of the instance, boring discussion)
- Inquisition (hidden category for users with trust level 3+)
As you can see, I combined python-committers and python-dev into just "Committers". If we find in the future that this is too limiting, we can always open up another category. For now though I'd like to avoid the fate of python-dev where there's 20k+ subscribers and we don't know who is who.
*CALL TO ACTION* We'd like to heavily test this new forum. As such, I would like to ask you to *NOT USE* python-committers for the remainder of the year and direct all conversation to Discourse.
The goal to replace the mailing lists with Discourse met unanimous support at the core sprint. As long as we don't identify any deal breakers in October, I will send an e-mail like this to python-dev on November 1st, and to python-list and python-ideas on December 1st. If everything goes smoothly, those four mailing lists will be archived by end of this year. Other mailing lists are welcome to port over to Discourse too.
*Acknowledgements* Pablo and Ernest worked on setting up this instance for us (thank you both! 🖤). The question whether Discourse or the Python Software Foundation are going to pay for this infrastructure is still open but, as Elon Musk likes to say, funding is secured. Yury and I are helping in configuring the instance.
*Future work* We'll be enabling GitHub and social logins soon, ideally with adding identified committers to the committers group by default. We are looking into this right now. In the mean time, please request membership, an existing member will add you. We'd like to migrate old discussion off of the mailing lists to our Discourse instance so that search is immediately useful. We'll look into that after the governance crisis is resolved.
- Ł
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:55, Chris Jerdonek <chris.jerdonek@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl <mailto:lukasz@langa.pl>> wrote: There is a user trust system where proven community members get more power in time, for example to fix typos and move topics to a better category.
Will committers start out as "proven," or will we need to "re-prove" ourselves to gain additional privileges? How is the trust evaluation bootstrapped in Python's case, and who can confer additional trust (e.g. can it be non-committers, etc)?
Regular users start at trust level 0. Committers are at trust level 3. There is only one more level and this is for moderators and admins of the instance. This models what we had on the mailing lists, what we have on GitHub, and so on. I hope it makes sense.
I hope this thread about transitioning is exempt from this call to action! :)
This e-mail is specifically re-posted on Discourse so you can discuss it there, too :-)
- Ł
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 4:47 PM Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
On 28 Sep 2018, at 23:55, Chris Jerdonek <chris.jerdonek@gmail.com> wrote:
I hope this thread about transitioning is exempt from this call to action! :)
This e-mail is specifically re-posted on Discourse so you can discuss it there, too :-)
Hi Łukasz, I tried signing up three days ago, but it doesn't look like I've been approved yet (e.g. I'm not listed in the members list). I notice some other people have been approved during this time based on the group count. I tried emailing you privately about this a couple days ago, too.
Thanks for any help, --Chris
- Ł
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 1:06 PM Chris Jerdonek <chris.jerdonek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Łukasz, I tried signing up three days ago, but it doesn't look like I've been approved yet (e.g. I'm not listed in the members list). I notice some other people have been approved during this time based on the group count. I tried emailing you privately about this a couple days ago, too.
Hi Chris,
I've just added you to the group.
--Berker
Great, thank you! --Chris
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 3:44 AM Berker Peksağ <berker.peksag@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 1:06 PM Chris Jerdonek <chris.jerdonek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Łukasz, I tried signing up three days ago, but it doesn't look like I've been approved yet (e.g. I'm not listed in the members list). I notice some other people have been approved during this time based on the group count. I tried emailing you privately about this a couple days ago, too.
Hi Chris,
I've just added you to the group.
--Berker
python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
El vie., 28 de sep. de 2018 a la(s) 18:45, Łukasz Langa (lukasz@langa.pl) escribió:
We'll be enabling GitHub and social logins soon, ideally with adding identified committers to the committers group by default. We are looking into this right now. In the mean time, please request membership, an existing member will add you. We'd like to migrate old discussion off of the mailing lists to our Discourse instance so that search is immediately useful. We'll look into that after the governance crisis is resolved.
Hello! How do I request membership to the commiters group in Discourse?
Thanks!
-- . Facundo
Blog: http://www.taniquetil.com.ar/plog/ PyAr: http://www.python.org.ar/ Twitter: @facundobatista
On Sep 28, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl> wrote:
Signed PGP part Hello committers, since this got pretty long, here's the tl;dr:
- we're at the point where it is hard to make mailing lists work for us;
- we're switching to Discourse; it's better in many ways;
- go to https://discuss.python.org/ <https://discuss.python.org/> and create your account there;
- please do not post to python-committers for the remainder of the year to give Discourse a real shot.
The site shows up blank for me in Safari.
Which browsers are supported?
Doug
On Oct 1, 2018, at 8:18 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug@doughellmann.com> wrote:
Signed PGP part
On Sep 28, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Łukasz Langa <lukasz@langa.pl <mailto:lukasz@langa.pl>> wrote:
Signed PGP part Hello committers, since this got pretty long, here's the tl;dr:
- we're at the point where it is hard to make mailing lists work for us;
- we're switching to Discourse; it's better in many ways;
- go to https://discuss.python.org/ <https://discuss.python.org/> and create your account there;
- please do not post to python-committers for the remainder of the year to give Discourse a real shot.
The site shows up blank for me in Safari.
Which browsers are supported?
Nevermind, it appears related to the javascript popup-blocking setting.
Doug
participants (24)
-
Antoine Pitrou -
Barry Warsaw -
Berker Peksağ -
Brett Cannon -
Chris Jerdonek -
Donald Stufft -
Doug Hellmann -
Eric Snow -
Facundo Batista -
Guido van Rossum -
M.-A. Lemburg -
Nathaniel Smith -
Nick Coghlan -
Paul Moore -
Robert Collins -
Ronald Oussoren -
Serhiy Storchaka -
Stefan Krah -
Steve Dower -
Steven D'Aprano -
Terry Reedy -
Victor Stinner -
Yury Selivanov -
Łukasz Langa