Mailman 3 June 2002 - Python-Dev

Lazily GC tracking tuples
by Daniel Dunbar 04 Jun '02

04 Jun '02

A few days ago the idea of untracking, or somehow removing, immutable and provably uncyclic tuples from garbage collection was bounced about - at the time the idea was to untrack a tuple once it was noticed that it contained no cyclic objects... this proves annoying to implement because of unfilled tuples, and C-api calls that mutate the tuple (highly unusual it seems). Lazily tracking the tuples seems to be a much simpler proposition: a tuple can only be a member of a cycle once an element of ob_item is set to an object that could contain a cycle, presumably items are set in a tuple far less frequently than they are accessed (by normal code or the collector), so I imagine this method is also more efficient. The changes required are fairly small, PyObject_GC_IS_TRACKED is added to determine if an object is tracked, the gc track and untrack operations in tupleobject.c are modified to account for the tuple not always being tracked, and PyTuple_SET_ITEM and PyTuple_SetItem are modified to begin tracking the tuple if a) it is not already tracked, and b) the item being set _could_ contain a cycle. At the moment, I use PyObject_IS_GC as a conserative approximation to '_could_ contain a cycle', which works well except for nested tuples. In theory if v is a tuple, _SetItem(o,i,v) should only be called when v has been completely filled, so if v is untracked then we know it also cannot be member of a cycle, which solves the nested tuple problem. In practice making the nested tuple change did not cause any change in behavior on the test suite, but I have left it out for simplicity. Large trees of atomic data represented as tuples seems like a case where it could possibly make a difference. A 2.23 patch for the changes outlined above are at: http://www.geocities.com/evilzr/lazytuplegc/ (I wasn't sure if such things are appropriate for the SF-patch manager - yes/no?) If you want to actually test the changes you need a recent checkout, there was a minor collector bug that the lazy tracking exploited heavily. Some stats - cvs | lazytuplegc --------------------------------------- iterzip_test, N=500000 juststore: 1.46 | 1.43 gc size 1143 | 788 justtups: 1.40 | 1.30 gc size 1143 | 788 storetups: 8.48 | 4.11 gc size 501143 | 788 base gc set size python: 1081 | 742 idle: 7754 | 3818 pybench 1.0 avg time (n=10,warp=20) 69813.40 | 69708.04 The iterzip_test is only slightly munged from the one Tim Peters posted on the iterzip() thread. The pybench averages are almost identical, however there are large fluctuations on the individual tests, see http://www.geocities.com/evilzr/lazytuplegc/cmp.txt The base gc set numbers are obtained by starting python (or idle) and immediatly running a collection with gc.DEBUG_STATS on. All gc size numbers are size(gen0)+size(gen1)+size(gen2). this patch causes one regrtest to fail (test_gc, in test_staticmethod, for reasons I do not yet understand (help!)). ... make of it what you will :) Oh and, not to make this post longer, but heres the first-pydev-list-posting-info: I'm Daniel Dunbar, my introduction to Python was embedding it into the Blender 3D package (www.blender3d.com, but we went out of business - oops). Since then I have used it for lots of esoteric little tasks, but only recently after wrapping some of my C-based libraries have I started writing complex (ie. applications not utilities) programs with it. My main interest related to python development is making it go faster (so I can optimize my code less)... but thats probably not rare. ===== daniel dunbar evilzr(a)yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com

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Re: [Python-Dev] zap _Py prefix?
by Michael Hudson 03 Jun '02

03 Jun '02

Michael Gilfix <mgilfix(a)eecs.tufts.edu> writes: > There's also py backwards: > > yp_func > > or even: > > yP_func > > I think I like the last one better. Unfortunately, that screams "Yellow Pages", even to me. ...-let's-call-the-whole-thing-off-ly y'rs m. -- Well, yes. I don't think I'd put something like "penchant for anal play" and "able to wield a buttplug" in a CV unless it was relevant to the gig being applied for... -- Matt McLeod, alt.sysadmin.recovery

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Silent Deprecation
by Raymond Hettinger 03 Jun '02

03 Jun '02

Did we ever decide how to implement silent deprecation in the docs? Some of the choices were: 1. Delete it from the current docs (making Fred cringe) 2. Move it to a separate section of the docs 3. Add a note to the docs. Perhaps \dissuade{apply()}{Use func(*args,**kwds) instead} Raymond Hettinger

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Re: [Python-Dev] Socket timeout patch
by Michael Hudson 03 Jun '02

03 Jun '02

Guido van Rossum <guido(a)python.org> writes: > OK, but given the issues the first version had, I recommand that the ^^^^^^^^^ I *like* this typo :) > code gets more review and that you write unit tests for all cases. Cheers, M. -- I've reinvented the idea of variables and types as in a programming language, something I do on every project. -- Greg Ward, September 1998

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Re: [Python-Dev] PYC Magic
by Michael Hudson 03 Jun '02

03 Jun '02

"Gordon McMillan" <gmcm(a)hypernet.com> writes: > On 1 Jun 2002 at 10:15, Neal Norwitz wrote: > > > Guido van Rossum wrote: > > > > What do you mean by "can't be written to disk"? > > > Disk full was one condition. > > I can't be 100% sure of the cause, but I *have* > seen this (a bad .pyc file that had to be > deleted before the module would import). The .pyc > was woefully short but passed the magic > test. I think this was 2.1, maybe 2.0. Someone on comp.lang.python reported getting corrupt .pycs by having modules in a user-writeable directory being accessed more-or-less simultaneously by different Python versions. I'm not sure what could be done aobut that. Cheers, M. -- First of all, email me your AOL password as a security measure. You may find that won't be able to connect to the 'net for a while. This is normal. The next thing to do is turn your computer upside down and shake it to reboot it. -- Darren Tucker, asr

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Entschuldigen Sie bitte die St�rung!
by phoengeist38259＠arcor.de 03 Jun '02

03 Jun '02

Entschuldigen Sie bitte die Störung! Mir ist etwas zu Ohren gekommen. Eine relativ aussergewöhnliche Gerüchteküche, aus der man mir ein schwerverdauliches Süppchen vorgesetzt hat, ist der Grund meiner Mail. Unappetitlich ist gar kein Ausdruck! Ist es möglich auf funktechnischem Wege(in welchen Frequenzbereichen?) jemanden zu beeinflussen oder zu manipulieren? Oder sogar zu schikanieren und terrorisieren? Unter dem Motto:"Einen am Sender?Nich ganz alleine? Kleine Mannim Ohr?Falsche Wellenlänge?Bohnen in den Ohren? Auf den Zahn gefühlt(Amalgam)?Mal unverbindlich reinhören? Der Pullacher Wanzentanz? Ist das Spinnerei?Das geht doch gar nicht,oder? Und wenn wie sieht das ethisch moralisch aus? Zur technischen Seite der Sache gibt es zwar Berichte und Webseiten: Totalitaer,de - Die Waffe gegen die Kritik http://www.raum-und-zeit.com/Aktuell/Brummton.htm http://www.fosar-bludorf.com/Tempelhof/ http://jya.com/haarp.htm http://www.zeitenschrift.at/magazin/zs_24_15/1_mikrowaffen.htm http://www.bse-plus.de/d/doc/lbrief/lbmincontr.htm http://home.nexgo.de/kraven/bigb/big3.html http://w3.nrl.navy.mil/projects/haarp/index.html http://cryptome.org/ http://www.raven1.net/ravindex.htm http://www.calweb.com/~welsh/ http://www.cahe.org/ http://www.parascope.com/ds/mkultra0.htm http://www.trufax.org/menu/mind.html http://www.trufax.org/menu/elect.html http://mindcontrolforum.com/ http://www.trufax.org/menu/elect.html usw. usw. usw. ,aber,das kann doch nicht sein,das soetwas gemacht wird,oder? Eine Menschenrechtsverletzung sonder gleichen!?! Ist es möglich,durch Präparation,der Ohren und im Zusammenspiel mit eventuell vorhandenem Zahnersatz? Mit relativ einfacher Funktechnik?? In diesem Land?Hier und heute??? Unter welchen Motiven? Wo ist eigentlich die Abteilung 5 des BND und des Verfassungsschutzes? Kann es sein,daß es Leute gibt,die dem BND/Verfassungsschutz,auf funktechnischem Wege permanent einen Situationsbericht abliefern,ohne es selbst zu merken,im Kindesalter machbar gemacht?? Werden durch solche inoffiziellen Mitarbeiter,beim BND und Verfassungsschutz,nach Stasimanier, Informationen von und über,rein theoretisch, jeden Bundesbürger,gesammelt? Gibt es dann noch ein Recht auf Privatsphere? Wer kontrolliert eigentlich den BND,MAD und Verfassungsschutz auf Unterwanderung??? In der Mail geht es mir eigentlich um die Frage,ob es kriminellen Elementen, aus dem Motiv der Bereicherung,oder Gruppierungen aus ideologischen Motiven, möglich ist ,sich Wissen und Technik anzueignen,die zu anderen Zeiten, aus anderen Motiven(Westfernsehen?),entwickelt wurde. Und stellt der technische Wissensstand, der der Allgemeinheit bekannt ist wirklich das Ende der Fahnenstange dar? Ist es denn nicht kriminellen Elementen genauso möglich, ich sage das jetzt mal verharmlost und verniedlichend, einzelne Personen oder Gruppen mit relativ einfachen Mitteln, aus welchen Motiven auch immer, auszuspionieren? Und stellt diese "Ausspioniererei" nicht einen erheblichen Eingriff in die Privatsphäre dar? Ist es möglich einzelne Personen oder Gruppen, eine Akzeptans einer gewissen Öffentlichkeit(suggeriert?), die z.B. mit Hilfe von Internetseiten,wie zum Beispiel dem "Pranger"geschaffen werden könnte, mal vorausgestzt,zu terroriesieren und oder zu schikanieren, und das in aller (suggerierten)Öffentlichkeit?Haben die Leute die da am Pranger, oder auf irgendeiner anderen Seite verunglimpft,oder gar Verleumdet werden, eigentlich eine Chance zur Gegenöffentlichkeit?Ist das nicht Rufmord? Vor einigen Jahren bin ich per Zufall auf die Seite "Der Pranger" gestoßen, damals lief das noch nicht unter dem Deckmantel der Partnervermittlung. Können sich einzelne Personen,oder Interessengemeinschaften, aus reinem Selbstzweck,solcher Seiten bedienen, um unter dem Deckmantel einer fragwürdigen Zivilkourage, durch anzetteln irgendwelcher Hetzkampagnen,eigene, ganz persöhnliche Interessen durchsetzen? Können solche Seiten zur Koordination von kriminellen machenschaften dienen? Die Frage,ist es Möglichkeit oder Unmöglichkeit,technisch und gesellschaftlich, einzelne Personen,oder auch Gruppierungen,aus einer kriminellen/ideologischen Energei heraus,zu manipulieren oder zu beeinflussen,terrorisieren oder zu schickanieren,und zwar gezielt. Zielgruppenmanipulation durch Massenmedien sind alltägliche Manipulation, der mansich,mehr oder weniger,entziehen kann. Wird das Recht auf Privatsphäre,schleichend,tiefenpsychologisch, durch Sendungen,wie,zum Beispiel "Big brother",untergraben? Sollte bei einem der Angemailten ein gewisser Wissensstand zum Thema vorhanden sein, wäre ich über Hinweise zum Thema froh. Auf der Suche nach Antworten auf meine Fragen maile ich verschiedene Adressen aus dem Internet an, und hoffe aufkonstruktive Antworten und Kritiken. Über einen Besuch auf der Seite <http://hometown.aol.de/reinerhohn38259/homepage/index.html> würde ich mich freuen. Sollten Sie von mir mehrfach angeschrieben worden sein,so bitte ich Sie,mir dies zu entschuldigen, das war nicht beabsichtigt. Der Grund für meine Anonymität ist die Tatsache, daß bei derlei Fragenstellerei, verständlicherweise,schnell der Ruf nach der Psychatrie laut wird. Was auch Methode hat(ist). Sollten Sie die Mail als Belästigung empfinden, möchte ich mich hiermit dafür entschuldigen! Big brother is watching you? Excuse please the disturbance! Me something came to ears. A relatively unusual rumor kitchen, from which one put forward to me a heavydigestible soup, is the reason of my Mail. Unappetizing is no printout! Is it possible on radio Wege(in for which frequency ranges?) to influence or manipulate someone? Terrorize or to even chicane and? Under the Motto:"Einen at the Sender?Nich quite alone? Small Mannim Ohr?Fal Wellenlaenge?Bohnen in the ears? On the tooth clean-hear gefuehlt(Amalgam)?Mal witthout obligation? The Pullacher bug wanzentanz? Isn't the Spinnerei?Das goes nevertheless at all, or? And if as looks ethicalally morally? For the technical page of the thing there is to report and web page: Totalitaer,de - Die Waffe gegen die Kritik http://www.raum-und-zeit.com/Aktuell/Brummton.htm http://www.fosar-bludorf.com/Tempelhof/ http://jya.com/haarp.htm http://www.zeitenschrift.at/magazin/zs_24_15/1_mikrowaffen.htm http://www.bse-plus.de/d/doc/lbrief/lbmincontr.htm http://home.nexgo.de/kraven/bigb/big3.html http://w3.nrl.navy.mil/projects/haarp/index.html http://cryptome.org/ http://www.raven1.net/ravindex.htm http://www.calweb.com/~welsh/ http://www.cahe.org/ http://www.parascope.com/ds/mkultra0.htm http://www.trufax.org/menu/mind.html http://www.trufax.org/menu/elect.html http://mindcontrolforum.com/ http://www.trufax.org/menu/elect.html usw. usw. usw. but, that cannot be nevertheless, which is made soetwas, or? A violation of human rights resemble special!?! Is it possible, by preparation, the ears and in interaction with possibly available artificial dentures? With relatively simple radio engineering?? In this Land?Hier and today??? Under which motives? Where is the department actually 5 of the BND and the protection of the constitution? Can it be that there are people, which deliver the Federal Intelligence Service/protection of the constitution, on radio way permanently a situation report, without noticing it, in the infancy feasiblly made? By such unofficial coworkers, with the BND and protection of the constitution, after Stasimanier, is information collected of and over,purely theoretically, each Federal citizen? Is there then still another right to Privatsphere? Who actually checks the BND, WAD and protection of the constitution for infiltration??? Into the Mail actually concerns it to me the question whether it criminal items, from which motive of enriching, or groupings from ideological motives is possible, to acquire itself knowledge and technique which were developed at other times, from other Motiven(Westfernsehen?).And does the technical knowledge status place, to that the public admits is really the end of the flag bar? Is it not to criminal items just as possible, I legend that now times played down and does nice-end, individual persons or groups with relatively simple means, to spy from whatever motives always? And doesn't this " Ausspioniererei " represent a substantial intervention into the privatsphaere? It is possible individual persons or groups, one acceptance to of a certain Oeffentlichkeit(suggeriert?), e.g. by Internet pages, how for example the " Pranger"geschaffen could become, times vorausgestzt, to terroriesieren and or chicane, and in everything (the people suggerierten)Oeffentlichkeit?Haben there at the Pranger, or on any other page to be reviled, or slandered, actually a chance to the Gegenoeffentlichkeit?Ist that not character assassination? Some years ago I am by coincidence the page " the Pranger " encountered, at that time ran not yet under the cover of the partner switching.Itself can individual persons, or communities of interests, from pure self purpose, such pages to serve, over under the cover of a doubtful Zivilkourage, through plot any rushing campaigns, own, quite persoehnliche interests to intersperse? Can such pages serve for the co-ordination of criminal machinations? The question, is it possibility or impossibility, technically and socially, individual persons, or also groupings of manipulating or of influencing from an criminal/ideological Energei, terrorizes or to schickanieren, directed.Target group manipulation by mass media are everyday manipulation, from which, more or less, can extract itself. Does the right to privatsphaere, creeping, by transmissions become deep psychological, how, for example " Big undermine brother"? If the Angemailten should be available a certain knowledge status to the topic with one, I would be glad over notes to the topic On the search for responses to my questions maile I different addresses from the Internet on, and hope up-constructional responses and criticisms.Over an attendance on the page <http://hometown.aol.de/reinerhohn38259/homepage/index.html> wuerde I are pleased.If you should have been written down by me several times, then please I you to excuse me this that was not intended. The reason for my anonymity is the fact that with such Fragenstellerei, understandably, fast after the call the Psychatrie loud becomes. Which also method hat(ist). If you should feel the Mail as annoyance, I would like to apologize hereby for it! Big is watching you? Veuillez excuser le dérangement! Moi quelque chose concernant des oreilles est venu. Une cuisine de bruit relativement inhabituelle, dont on m'a placé un Sueppchen schwerverdauliches devant, est la raison de mes Mail.Aucune expression n'est peu appétissante! Il est possible sur un Wege(in funktechnischem pour quelles réponses fréquentielles?) quelqu'un influencer ou manipuler? Ou même schikanieren et terroriser? Sous le Motto:"Einen au Sender?Nich tout à fait seulement? Petits Mannim Ohr?Falsche Wellenlaenge?Bohnen dans les oreilles? Sur la dent gefuehlt(Amalgam)?Mal non contraignant reinhoeren? Le Pullacher Wanzentanz? Le Spinnerei?Das n'est-il quand même pas du tout va, ou? Et si comme cela paraît éthiquement moralement? Au côté technique de la chose, il y a certes des rapports et des Webseiten: Totalitaer,de - Die Waffe gegen die Kritik http://www.raum-und-zeit.com/Aktuell/Brummton.htm http://www.fosar-bludorf.com/Tempelhof/ http://jya.com/haarp.htm http://www.zeitenschrift.at/magazin/zs_24_15/1_mikrowaffen.htm http://www.bse-plus.de/d/doc/lbrief/lbmincontr.htm http://home.nexgo.de/kraven/bigb/big3.html http://w3.nrl.navy.mil/projects/haarp/index.html http://cryptome.org/ http://www.raven1.net/ravindex.htm http://www.calweb.com/~welsh/ http://www.cahe.org/ http://www.parascope.com/ds/mkultra0.htm http://www.trufax.org/menu/mind.html http://www.trufax.org/menu/elect.html http://mindcontrolforum.com/ http://www.trufax.org/menu/elect.html usw. usw. usw. toutefois qui ne peut quand même pas être qui on fait soetwas, ou? Une violation des droits de l'homme séparer ressembler!?! Il est possible, par la préparation, des oreilles et dans l'effet avec la prothèse dentaire éventuellement existante? Avec la technique de radio relativement simple?? Dans ce Land?Hier et aujourd'hui Sous quels motifs? Où le département est-il en réalité 5 du BND et de la protection d'constitution? peut il être qu'il y a les personnes qui livrent en permanence le BND/Verfassungsschutz, de manière funktechnischem un rapport de situation, sans le remarquer le -même , dans l'enfance rendu possible?? Par de tels collaborateurs officieux, avec le BND et la protection d'constitution, après manière, des informations sont-elles rassemblées et plus de, purement théoriquement, chaque citoyen allemand? Il y a alors encore un droit à des Privatsphere? Qui contrôle en réalité le BND, mad et protection d'constitution sur une infiltration??? Il s'agit en réalité dans le Mail me la question de savoir si lui éléments criminels, dont le motif de l'enrichissement, ou de groupements des motifs idéologiques, possible de s'acquérir le savoir et la technique qui à d'autres temps, est autre MotivenEt place-t-il le savoir technique dont le public vraiment la fin la barre de drapeau a connaissance ? Il n'est pas donc exactement la même chose possible pour des éléments criminels, moi cela maintenant fois verharmlost et minimisant une légende, personnes ou groupes particuliers avec des moyens relativement simples, de quels motifs aussi toujours, auszuspionieren?(Westfernsehen?), a été développé. Et ce "Ausspioniererei" ne représente-t-il pas une intervention considérable dans la vie privée? Il est possible personnes ou groupes particuliers, pour certain Oeffentlichkeit(suggeriert?), celui p. ex. à l'aide des côtés Internet, comme par exemple "le Pranger"geschaffen pourrait, fois vorausgestzt schikanieren terroriesieren et ou , et qui toute (suggerierten)Oeffentlichkeit?Haben les personnes ceux là, ou d'un autre côté verunglimpft, ou on ne pas calomnie, en réalité une chance au Gegenoeffentlichkeit?Ist qui meurtre d'appel? Il y a quelques années, je ne suis pas encore par hasard sur le côté "celui" poussé, fonctionnais alors cela sous la couche de pont de l'entremise partenaire. Des personnes particulières, ou des communautés d'intérêts le peuventelles, d'un autobut pur, de tels côtés servent, sous la couche de pont d'un Zivilkourage douteux, tracent plus de des campagnes de précipitation, propres intérêts tout à fait persoehnliche entremêlent? De tels côtés peuvent-ils servir à la coordination des manoeuvres criminelles? Question, est lui possibilité ou impossibilité de manipuler ou d'influencer techniquement et socialement, particulière personnes, ou aussi groupements, criminelle/ponctuel idéologique Energei dehors, , terroriser ou schickanieren, et ce.Une manipulation de groupe cible par des masse-médias être la manipulation quotidienne qui peut extraire mansich, plus ou moins. Le droit à la vie privée est-il miné, ramment, tiefenpsychologisch, par des envois, comme, par exemple "des Big brother"? Avec un les Angemailten si un certain savoir devait exister sur le thème, je serais heureux sur des indications sur le thème.Sur la recherche des réponses à mes questions je différentes adresses maile d'Internet dessus, et espère réponses et critiques aufkonstruktive. Sur une visite du côté http://hometown.aol.de/reinerhohn38259/homepage/index.html> je me réjouirais. Si vous deviez avoir été écrit à différentes reprises par moi, je vous demande de m'excuser cela qui n'était pas envisagé. La raison de mon anonymat est le fait qu'avec telle des Fragenstellerei, l'appel devient ce qui est bien compréhensible, rapidement bruyant après le Psychatrie. Ce que la méthode a également (ist). Si vous deviez ressentir les Mail comme un ennui, je voudrais m'excuser par ceci pour cela! Big brother is watching you?

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Other library code transformations
by Raymond Hettinger 03 Jun '02

03 Jun '02

While we're eliminating uses of the string and types modules, how about other code clean-ups and modernization: d.has_key(k) --> k in d if k in d.keys() --> if k in d obj.__dict__ --> vars(obj) class X(UserList) --> class X(list) class X(UserDict) --> class X(dict) # and remove .data references 0L --> 0 1L --> 1 lambda x, y=y: fun(x,y) --> lambda x: fun(x,y) x = y.__class__ --> x is type(y) == None --> is None if item in astring --> if item in adict This is from my own list of code updates, the python library already in better shape. Raymond Hettinger

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Re: [Python-Dev] intra-package mutual imports fail: "from <pkg> import <mod>"
by Matthias Urlichs 03 Jun '02

03 Jun '02

> module5.py: > from package import module6 # absolute import > > module6.py: > from package import module5 > [...] > ImportError: cannot import name module5 > > Is this behavior expected? Or is it a bug? The problem is that importing with from consists of two steps: - load the module - add the imported names to the local namespace Since this addition is by reference to the actual object and not to the symbol's name in the other module, a concept which Python doesn't have (use Perl if you want this...), your recursive import doesn't work. The solution would be: import package.module6 as module6 which should have the same effect. -- Matthias Urlichs

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Numeric conversions
by David Abrahams 03 Jun '02

03 Jun '02

The following small program is giving me some unexpected results with Python 2.2.1: class Int(object): def __int__(self): return 10 class Float(object): def __float__(self): return 10.0 class Long(object): def __long__(self): return 10L class Complex(object): def __complex__(self): return (10+0j) def attempt(f,arg): try: return f(arg) except Exception,e: return str(e.__class__.__name__)+': '+str(e) for f in int,float,long,complex: for t in Int,Float,Long,Complex: print f.__name__ + '(' + t.__name__ + ')\t\t', print attempt(f,t()) ----- results ------ int(Int) 10 int(Float) TypeError: object can't be converted to int int(Long) TypeError: object can't be converted to int int(Complex) TypeError: object can't be converted to int *** OK, int() seems to work as expected float(Int) TypeError: float() needs a string argument float(Float) 10.0 float(Long) TypeError: float() needs a string argument float(Complex) TypeError: float() needs a string argument *** float() seems to work, but what's with the error message about strings? long(Int) TypeError: object can't be converted to long long(Float) TypeError: object can't be converted to long long(Long) 10 long(Complex) TypeError: object can't be converted to long **** OK, long seems to work as expected complex(Int) TypeError: complex() arg can't be converted to complex complex(Float) (10+0j) complex(Long) TypeError: complex() arg can't be converted to complex complex(Complex) TypeError: complex() arg can't be converted to complex **** I can understand complex() handling Float implicitly, but only if it also handles Complex! And if it does handle Float implicitly, shouldn't all of these handle everything? Comments? -Dave +---------------------------------------------------------------+ David Abrahams C++ Booster (http://www.boost.org) O__ == Pythonista (http://www.python.org) c/ /'_ == resume: http://users.rcn.com/abrahams/resume.html (*) \(*) == email: david.abrahams(a)rcn.com +---------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [Python-Dev] Re: [Python-checkins] python/dist/src/Lib/test test_signal.py,1.9,1.10
by Michael Hudson 03 Jun '02

03 Jun '02

Michael Hudson <mwh(a)python.net> writes: > Now what do I do? Back my patch out? Not expose the functions on > BSD? It works on Linux... But nowhere else, it would seem, at least not when python is built threaded. Darwin fails in a similar manner to FreeBSD, test_signal hangs on Solaris, but only if it's runs as part of the test suite -- it runs fine if you just run it alone. Argh! I really am starting to think that I should back out my patch and distribute my code as an extension module. Opinions? Cheers, M. -- But since your post didn't lay out your assumptions, your goals, or how you view language characteristics as fitting in with either, you're not a *natural* candidate for embracing Design by Contract <0.6 wink>. -- Tim Peters, giving Eiffel adoption advice

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Re: [Python-checkins] python/dist/src/Lib formatter.py,1.20,1.21 ftplib.py,1.69,1.70 gettext.py,1.13,1.14 hmac.py,1.5,1.6
by Guido van Rossum 02 Jun '02

02 Jun '02

[Andrew MacIntyre commenting on Raymond H's changes from "if x" to "if x is not None"] > You have in fact changed the semantics of this test with your change. > > In the case where file = '', the original would fall through to the > elif, whereas with your change it won't. The question is whether that's an important change or not. Raymond has changed the semantics in every case where he made this particular change. Usually that's fine. Occasionally it's not. > It concerns me that your extensive changes have introduced some > unexpected traps which won't be sprung until 2.3 is released. Me too. I think 99% of the changes were "right", but without looking at actual use cases much more we won't know where the 1% mistakes are. I think it's okay to do this (because of the 99%) but we should be aware that we may be breaking some code and willing to revert the decision in some cases. I'm not sure how we can test this enough before 2.3 is released -- surely the alphas won't shake out enough. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

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Weekly Python Bug/Patch Summary
by Skip Montanaro 02 Jun '02

02 Jun '02

Bug/Patch Summary ----------------- 263 open / 2539 total bugs (+8) 136 open / 1532 total patches (+8) New Bugs -------- crash in shelve module (2001-03-13) http://python.org/sf/408271 UTF-16 BOM handling counterintuitive (2002-05-13) http://python.org/sf/555360 import user doesn't work with CGIs (2002-05-14) http://python.org/sf/555779 removing extensions without admin rights (2002-05-14) http://python.org/sf/555810 installing extension w/o admin rights (2002-05-14) http://python.org/sf/555812 Flawed fcntl.ioctl implementation. (2002-05-14) http://python.org/sf/555817 Expat improperly described in setup.py (2002-05-15) http://python.org/sf/556370 illegal use of malloc/free (2002-05-16) http://python.org/sf/557028 TclError is a str should be an Exception (2002-05-17) http://python.org/sf/557436 netrc module can't handle all passwords (2002-05-18) http://python.org/sf/557704 faqwiz.py could do email obfuscation (2002-05-19) http://python.org/sf/558072 Compile error _sre.c on Cray T3E (2002-05-19) http://python.org/sf/558153 Shutdown of IDLE blows up (2002-05-19) http://python.org/sf/558166 rfc822.Message.get() incompatibility (2002-05-20) http://python.org/sf/558179 unittest.TestResult documentation (2002-05-20) http://python.org/sf/558278 \verbatiminput and name duplication (2002-05-20) http://python.org/sf/558279 DL_EXPORT on VC7 broken (2002-05-20) http://python.org/sf/558488 HTTPSConnection memory leakage (2002-05-22) http://python.org/sf/559117 imaplib.IMAP4.open() typo (2002-05-23) http://python.org/sf/559884 inconsistent behavior of __getslice__ (2002-05-24) http://python.org/sf/560064 PyType_IsSubtype can segfault (2002-05-24) http://python.org/sf/560215 Add docs for 'string' (2002-05-24) http://python.org/sf/560286 foo() doesn't use __getattribute__ (2002-05-25) http://python.org/sf/560438 deepcopy can't handle custom metaclasses (2002-05-26) http://python.org/sf/560794 Maximum recursion limit exceeded (2002-05-27) http://python.org/sf/561047 ConfigParser has_option case sensitive (2002-05-29) http://python.org/sf/561822 Assertion with very long lists (2002-05-29) http://python.org/sf/561858 test_signal.py fails on FreeBSD-4-stable (2002-05-29) http://python.org/sf/562188 build problems on DEC Unix 4.0f (2002-05-30) http://python.org/sf/562585 xmlrpclib.Binary.data undocumented (2002-05-31) http://python.org/sf/562878 Module can be used as a base class (2002-05-31) http://python.org/sf/563060 Clarify documentation for inspect (2002-06-01) http://python.org/sf/563273 Fuzziness in inspect module documentatio (2002-06-01) http://python.org/sf/563298 Heap corruption in debug (2002-06-01) http://python.org/sf/563303 Getting traceback in embedded python. (2002-06-01) http://python.org/sf/563338 Add separator argument to readline() (2002-06-02) http://python.org/sf/563491 New Patches ----------- timeout socket implementation (2002-05-12) http://python.org/sf/555085 Mutable object change flag (2002-05-12) http://python.org/sf/555251 Cygwin AH_BOTTOM cleanup patch (2002-05-14) http://python.org/sf/555929 OSX build -- make python.app (2002-05-18) http://python.org/sf/557719 Ebcdic compliancy in stringobject source (2002-05-19) http://python.org/sf/557946 cmd.py: add instance-specific stdin/out (2002-05-20) http://python.org/sf/558544 SocketServer: don't flush closed wfile (2002-05-20) http://python.org/sf/558547 GC: untrack simple objects (2002-05-21) http://python.org/sf/558745 Use builtin boolean if present (2002-05-22) http://python.org/sf/559288 Expose xrange type in builtins (2002-05-23) http://python.org/sf/559833 isinstance error message (2002-05-24) http://python.org/sf/560250 os.uname() on Darwin space in machine (2002-05-24) http://python.org/sf/560311 Karatsuba multiplication (2002-05-24) http://python.org/sf/560379 Micro optimizations (2002-05-27) http://python.org/sf/561244 webchecker chokes at charsets. (2002-05-28) http://python.org/sf/561478 README additions for Cray T3E (2002-05-28) http://python.org/sf/561724 Installation database patch (2002-05-29) http://python.org/sf/562100 Getting rid of string, types and stat (2002-05-30) http://python.org/sf/562373 Prevent duplicates in readline history (2002-05-30) http://python.org/sf/562492 Add isxxx() methods to string objects (2002-05-30) http://python.org/sf/562501 First patch: start describing types... (2002-05-30) http://python.org/sf/562529 Remove UserDict from cookie.py (2002-05-31) http://python.org/sf/562987 Closed Bugs ----------- pdb can only step when at botframe (PR#4) (2000-07-31) http://python.org/sf/210682 Copy from stdout after crash (2001-11-29) http://python.org/sf/487297 detail: tp_basicsize and tp_itemsize (2001-12-12) http://python.org/sf/492349 Finder Tool Move not working on MOSX (2001-12-15) http://python.org/sf/493826 plugin project generation has problems (2001-12-18) http://python.org/sf/494572 Inaccuracy(?) in tutorial section 9.2 (2002-01-07) http://python.org/sf/500539 random.cunifvariate() incorrect? (2002-01-21) http://python.org/sf/506647 random.gammavariate hosed (2002-03-07) http://python.org/sf/527139 __reduce__ does not work as documented (2002-03-21) http://python.org/sf/533291 rexec: potential security hole (2002-03-22) http://python.org/sf/533625 Running MacPython as non-priv user may fail (2002-03-23) http://python.org/sf/534158 Compile fails on posixmodule.c (2002-04-10) http://python.org/sf/542003 Distutils readme outdated (2002-04-12) http://python.org/sf/542912 bug? floor divison on complex (2002-04-13) http://python.org/sf/543387 base64 newlines - documentation (again) (2002-04-22) http://python.org/sf/547037 cStringIO mangles Unicode (2002-04-23) http://python.org/sf/547537 Missing or wrong index entries (2002-04-25) http://python.org/sf/548693 Poor error message for float() (2002-05-02) http://python.org/sf/551673 PDF won't print (2002-05-03) http://python.org/sf/551828 "./configure" crashes (2002-05-06) http://python.org/sf/553000 cPickle dies on short reads (2002-05-07) http://python.org/sf/553512 bug in telnetlib- 'opt' instead of 'c' (2002-05-09) http://python.org/sf/554073 test_fcntl fails on OpenBSD 3.0 (2002-05-10) http://python.org/sf/554663 --disable-unicode builds horked (2002-05-11) http://python.org/sf/554912 rfc822.Message.getaddrlist broken (2002-05-11) http://python.org/sf/555035 Closed Patches -------------- Reminder: 2.3 should check tp_compare (2001-10-18) http://python.org/sf/472523 foreign-platform newline support (2001-10-31) http://python.org/sf/476814 Cygwin setup.py import workaround patch (2001-12-10) http://python.org/sf/491107 Fix webbrowser running on MachoPython (2002-01-10) http://python.org/sf/502205 fix random.gammavariate bug #527139 (2002-03-13) http://python.org/sf/529408 force gzip to open files with 'b' (2002-03-28) http://python.org/sf/536278 context sensitive help/keyword search (2002-04-08) http://python.org/sf/541031 error about string formatting rewording? (2002-04-26) http://python.org/sf/549187 Unittest for base64 (2002-04-28) http://python.org/sf/550002 __doc__ strings of builtin types (2002-04-29) http://python.org/sf/550290 GC collection frequency bug (2002-05-03) http://python.org/sf/551915 Add degrees() & radians() to math module (2002-05-05) http://python.org/sf/552452 Cygwin Makefile.pre.in vestige patch (2002-05-08) http://python.org/sf/553678 OpenBSD fixes for Python 2.2 (2002-05-10) http://python.org/sf/554719

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PYC Magic
by Neal Norwitz 02 Jun '02

02 Jun '02

I recently posted a patch to fix a bug: http://python.org/sf/561858. The patch requires changing .pyc magic. Since this bug goes back to 2.1, what is the process for changing .pyc magic in bugfix releases? ie, is it allowed? In this case the co_stacksize > 32767 and only a short is written to disk. This could be doubled to 65536 (probably should be) without changing the magic. But even that isn't sufficient to solve this problem. It also brings up a related problem. If the PyCodeObject can't be written to disk, should a .pyc be created at all? The code will run fine the first time, but when imported the second time it will fail. The other 16 bit values stored are: co_argcount, co_nlocals, co_flags. At least argcount & nlocals aren't too likely to exceed 32k, but co_flags could, which would be silently ignored now. Neal

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Re: Where to put wrap_text()?
by David Goodger 02 Jun '02

02 Jun '02

Greg Ward wrote: > [1] objects should *be*, not *do*, and class names like > HelpFormatter and TextWrapper are impositions of procedural > abstraction onto OOP. I don't see anything dangerous about -er objects. There are plenty of objects in the real world that end in -er, all nouns: Programmer, Bookkeeper, Publisher, Reader, Writer, Trucker, ad infinitum. Plenty of precedent in the OOP world too: Debugger, Profiler, Parser, TestLoader, SequenceMatcher, Visitor. Objects combine state (data) with behavior (processing); sometimes the state is most important, sometimes the behavior. Following that kind of over-simplified "rule" may do more harm than good. I'm glad you didn't fall for it. ;-) -- David Goodger <goodger(a)users.sourceforge.net> Open-source projects: - Python Docutils: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/ (includes reStructuredText: http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html) - The Go Tools Project: http://gotools.sourceforge.net/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.3 release schedule
by Michael Hudson 01 Jun '02

01 Jun '02

Tim Peters <tim.one(a)comcast.net> writes: > [Michael Hudson] > > Surprise of the day: this [is all that's required!]: > > > > #if PY_VERSION_HEX < 0x01060000 > > /* raw memory interface already present */ > > > > /* there is no object memory interface in 1.5.2 */ > > #define PyObject_Malloc(size) PyMem_Malloc((size)) > > #define PyObject_Realloc(p, size) PyMem_Realloc((p), (size)) > > ... > > How come not the simpler > > #define PyObject_Malloc PyMem_Malloc > #define PyObject_Realloc PyMem_Realloc > > etc instead? Filling in an argument list prevents use of a name as a > function designator. I thought filling out the arguments was better style, for some reason. Easy enough to change. > > ... > > /* There are three "families" of memory API: the "raw memory", "object > > memory" and "object" families. > > > > Raw Memory: > > > > PyMem_Malloc, PyMem_Realloc, PyMem_Free > > > > Object Memory: > > > > PyObject_Malloc, PyObject_Realloc, PyObject_Free > > > > Object: > > > > PyObject_New, PyObject_NewVar, PyObject_Del > > I rarely mention the PyObject_GC_XYZ family because it's already in good > shape. But its API changed between 2.1 and 2.2, and it would be good to > supply a compatibility layer for it too. Pick Neil's brain <wink>. I was under the impression that the 2.1 and 2.2 interfaces differed in ways that couldn't easily be papered over with macros. I'll check. > > ... > > Comments, flames, etc appreciated. > > I especially liked the (snipped) to-the-point comment blocks; Thanks; I think it is a good idea to describe intended usage in no uncertain terms *somewhere* at least. Probably lots of places. Any book authors reading python-dev? > PyObject_Del problems were already mentioned; thank you! I hope it helps! Cheers, M. -- Famous remarks are very seldom quoted correctly. -- Simeon Strunsky

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Customization docs
by David Abrahams 01 Jun '02

01 Jun '02

A few questions about customization and the docs, TIA: ------ http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ref/customization.html tosses off this sentence in the section on rich comparisons: "A rich comparison method may return NotImplemented if it does not implement the operation for a given pair of arguments." ...but it says nothing about the effect that will have. Using Thomas Heller's search engine, I found http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ref/types.html#l2h-59, which says "...Numeric methods and rich comparison methods may return this value if they do not implement the operation for the operands provided. (The interpreter will then try the reflected operation, or some other fallback, depending on the operator.) " This seems like the wrong place to bury the description of the mechanism for operating on heterogeneous arguments. Shouldn't a short description go into the Customization section of the docs? ------- It also mentions, "There are no reflected (swapped-argument) versions of these methods (to be used when the left argument does not support the operation but the right argument does)..." since these are the first binary operators described the whole concept of reflected methods hasn't been introduced yet, and the user has no reason to think that reflected versions should exist. [incidentally, "reflected" and "reflection" produce no hits with Thomas' engine] -------

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Re: [Python-Dev] Customization docs
by David Abrahams 01 Jun '02

01 Jun '02

From: "Guido van Rossum" <guido(a)python.org> > > As I indicated in my previous mail, I didn't expect any other result. > > Then your question was formulated strangely. You showed the result > and said "how does it know that list items are immutable"; the context > suggested strongly to me that you had expected something else. > > > My question was about what a new type needs to do in order for things to > > work properly in Python. > > You could have asked that directly. :-) Incorrect background assumptions have a way of fouling communication. I hope it's obvious that I'm making an effort to be clear. -Dave

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Those (punctuations and skul heads) bug tracking systems! :-)
by pinard＠iro.umontreal.ca 01 Jun '02

01 Jun '02

Hi, gang. Anecdotical rants from a technical Luddite, yours truly! :-) A few days ago, I wrote Fred about a tiny problem in Python documentation. Fred replied (very nicely, don't doubt it) something like "Yes, this should absolutely be corrected, but being busy now, I might forget about this -- so please submit a bug report using the SF tracker". I learnt to shudder with horror when people tell me such things. Email is so simple, clean, expeditive and human! Each time I have to use a BTS, this is the same story, I spend a lot of hours studying around, then later experimenting with the system. And finally, I invariably fall in dead ends, after having met a few blatant bugs in the BTS itself. Don't tell me it's my browser. The browser is an integral part of the BTS. Think "user" here! So, trying once more to be a good citizen, I spent many hours yesterday at sorting and reading the email I saved over time, about various comments or references from Python developers about the BTS in use. If I filed these, this is foreseeing I could not escape the Python BTS forever, especially if I want to involve myself a bit more. Reading all this more attentively, I noticed a flurry of alternate, confusing, and sometimes heavy notations to access already submitted reports and documentation, changes in numbering and methods over time that were did not always seem to be fully gracious, I admired the relative nicety of the Python SF redirector, and its minor short-comings. Notable to me were many developer comments about reports being mis-attributed, re-filed, unduly aging or nearly lost in practice. This morning, I decided to do the great try, knowing that there is a facility to prepare the message offline using a reasonable editor (Netscape is very far from my concept of a usable editor) and submit it afterwards. I prepared the message yesterday, saved it into a `temp0' file, and moved it over to the machine here, coming back from travel. Netscape first refused to see that `temp0' file in its directory in the file browsing window, it apparently only saw `*.html' files. I was surely not to turn my little communication into HTML first for Fred to see, so I merely typed the file name in the upload box. "Category", "Group", "Summary", "Check to Upload and Attach File" all had a little '?' besides them, from which I expected some documentation, but clicking on them yielded "File loaded" in the bottom echo area, and _nothing_ more. For "File Description" in particular, I would have needed more information, but there was no `?' next to it, so I merely guessed it wanted a MIME type and wrote "text/plain" within it. Clicking "SUBMIT" gave something like "ERROR Invalid file name", and no kind of feedback about the bug having been submitted. So I guessed the file needed an extension, and renamed `temp0' into `temp0.txt', then modified the file name accordingly in the upload box. Re-attempting "SUBMIT" a second time yielded: "ERROR You Attempted To Double-submit this item. Please avoid double-clicking." Sigh! The usual misery! OK. Instead of uploading a prepared file, I will now proceed to try cut and pasting into Netscape from a real editor, hoping that the mangling will be limited. I do know I have more comments and nuances for Fred, I should find the courage to share them: I fear one does not have much of a choice for contributing. Such rotten reporting systems are merely discouraging. Hmph! I'll continue trying to tame myself to these user interface failures. Sometimes, I ponder that if all maintainers were using the same BTS, the effort of learning to cope with _that one_ would probably have some more worth. I do imagine that a BTS could be useful. There are many BTS around, random projects using random BTS -- so the effort of fighting with BTS often has to be restarted when you play in many fields. Moreover, the truth is, at least for Python, that using a BTS does not solve the main problem, which is the insufficient number of contributors and developers. Risk for risk, I still think I have a much better chance being listened to and understood when I write to Fred directly! With some luck, Fred is an ordered and careful man who, just like me, is able to handle folders. I read with pleasure all the thread saying that `roundup' has an email interface, is actively being improved, and could replace the SF tracker. Let us hope it will be more usable than its precessors! You know, the real goal of all this is allowing for simple and humble communication between humans, about the knowledge of a problem. I surely used to be a very active reporter for all problems I saw everywhere, at the time maintainers were still reachable. When the effort gets too frustrating, sadly, one might feel less inclined to offer contributions, and rather choose to enjoy more of the sun, music, and life! :-) It may look like a useless moan, but it might be worth saying after all. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard

1 0

intra-package mutual imports fail: "from <pkg> import <mod>"
by David Goodger 01 Jun '02

01 Jun '02

I ran across this wrinkle and hope that someone can shed some light. First posted to comp.lang.python, but no help there. Can anyone here enlighten me? I have a package on sys.path containing pairs of modules, each importing the other:: package/ __init__.py: # empty module1.py: import module2 # relative import module2.py: import module1 Executing "from package import module1" works fine. Changing the import statements to absolute dotted forms also works for "from package import module3":: module3.py: import package.module4 # absolute import module4.py: import package.module3 However, if I change both imports to be absolute using the "from/import" form, it doesn't work:: module5.py: from package import module6 # absolute import module6.py: from package import module5 Now I get an exception:: >>> from package import module5 Traceback (most recent call last): File "<stdin>", line 1, in ? File "package/module5.py", line 1, in ? from package import module6 File "package/module6.py", line 1, in ? from package import module5 ImportError: cannot import name module5 Is this behavior expected? Or is it a bug? I note that FAQ entry 4.37 [*]_ says we shouldn't do "from <module> import *"; I'm not. Are all "from import" statements forbidden in this context? Why? (It seems to me that "import package.module" and "from package import module" are equivalent imports, except for their effect on the local namespace.) Is there an authoritative reference (docs, past c.l.p post, bug report, etc.)? .. [*] http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw.py?req=show&file=faq04.037.htp -- David Goodger <goodger(a)users.sourceforge.net> Open-source projects: - Python Docutils: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/ (includes reStructuredText: http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html) - The Go Tools Project: http://gotools.sourceforge.net/

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