Mailman 3 January 2015 - Python-Dev

PEP 1, PEP Purpose and Guidelines
by barry＠zope.com 18 May '21

18 May '21

It has been a while since I posted a copy of PEP 1 to the mailing lists and newsgroups. I've recently done some updating of a few sections, so in the interest of gaining wider community participation in the Python development process, I'm posting the latest revision of PEP 1 here. A version of the PEP is always available on-line at http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0001.html Enjoy, -Barry -------------------- snip snip -------------------- PEP: 1 Title: PEP Purpose and Guidelines Version: $Revision: 1.36 $ Last-Modified: $Date: 2002/07/29 18:34:59 $ Author: Barry A. Warsaw, Jeremy Hylton Status: Active Type: Informational Created: 13-Jun-2000 Post-History: 21-Mar-2001, 29-Jul-2002 What is a PEP? PEP stands for Python Enhancement Proposal. A PEP is a design document providing information to the Python community, or describing a new feature for Python. The PEP should provide a concise technical specification of the feature and a rationale for the feature. We intend PEPs to be the primary mechanisms for proposing new features, for collecting community input on an issue, and for documenting the design decisions that have gone into Python. The PEP author is responsible for building consensus within the community and documenting dissenting opinions. Because the PEPs are maintained as plain text files under CVS control, their revision history is the historical record of the feature proposal[1]. Kinds of PEPs There are two kinds of PEPs. A standards track PEP describes a new feature or implementation for Python. An informational PEP describes a Python design issue, or provides general guidelines or information to the Python community, but does not propose a new feature. Informational PEPs do not necessarily represent a Python community consensus or recommendation, so users and implementors are free to ignore informational PEPs or follow their advice. PEP Work Flow The PEP editor, Barry Warsaw <peps(a)python.org>, assigns numbers for each PEP and changes its status. The PEP process begins with a new idea for Python. It is highly recommended that a single PEP contain a single key proposal or new idea. The more focussed the PEP, the more successfully it tends to be. The PEP editor reserves the right to reject PEP proposals if they appear too unfocussed or too broad. If in doubt, split your PEP into several well-focussed ones. Each PEP must have a champion -- someone who writes the PEP using the style and format described below, shepherds the discussions in the appropriate forums, and attempts to build community consensus around the idea. The PEP champion (a.k.a. Author) should first attempt to ascertain whether the idea is PEP-able. Small enhancements or patches often don't need a PEP and can be injected into the Python development work flow with a patch submission to the SourceForge patch manager[2] or feature request tracker[3]. The PEP champion then emails the PEP editor <peps(a)python.org> with a proposed title and a rough, but fleshed out, draft of the PEP. This draft must be written in PEP style as described below. If the PEP editor approves, he will assign the PEP a number, label it as standards track or informational, give it status 'draft', and create and check-in the initial draft of the PEP. The PEP editor will not unreasonably deny a PEP. Reasons for denying PEP status include duplication of effort, being technically unsound, not providing proper motivation or addressing backwards compatibility, or not in keeping with the Python philosophy. The BDFL (Benevolent Dictator for Life, Guido van Rossum) can be consulted during the approval phase, and is the final arbitrator of the draft's PEP-ability. If a pre-PEP is rejected, the author may elect to take the pre-PEP to the comp.lang.python newsgroup (a.k.a. python-list(a)python.org mailing list) to help flesh it out, gain feedback and consensus from the community at large, and improve the PEP for re-submission. The author of the PEP is then responsible for posting the PEP to the community forums, and marshaling community support for it. As updates are necessary, the PEP author can check in new versions if they have CVS commit permissions, or can email new PEP versions to the PEP editor for committing. Standards track PEPs consists of two parts, a design document and a reference implementation. The PEP should be reviewed and accepted before a reference implementation is begun, unless a reference implementation will aid people in studying the PEP. Standards Track PEPs must include an implementation - in the form of code, patch, or URL to same - before it can be considered Final. PEP authors are responsible for collecting community feedback on a PEP before submitting it for review. A PEP that has not been discussed on python-list(a)python.org and/or python-dev(a)python.org will not be accepted. However, wherever possible, long open-ended discussions on public mailing lists should be avoided. Strategies to keep the discussions efficient include, setting up a separate SIG mailing list for the topic, having the PEP author accept private comments in the early design phases, etc. PEP authors should use their discretion here. Once the authors have completed a PEP, they must inform the PEP editor that it is ready for review. PEPs are reviewed by the BDFL and his chosen consultants, who may accept or reject a PEP or send it back to the author(s) for revision. Once a PEP has been accepted, the reference implementation must be completed. When the reference implementation is complete and accepted by the BDFL, the status will be changed to `Final.' A PEP can also be assigned status `Deferred.' The PEP author or editor can assign the PEP this status when no progress is being made on the PEP. Once a PEP is deferred, the PEP editor can re-assign it to draft status. A PEP can also be `Rejected'. Perhaps after all is said and done it was not a good idea. It is still important to have a record of this fact. PEPs can also be replaced by a different PEP, rendering the original obsolete. This is intended for Informational PEPs, where version 2 of an API can replace version 1. PEP work flow is as follows: Draft -> Accepted -> Final -> Replaced ^ +----> Rejected v Deferred Some informational PEPs may also have a status of `Active' if they are never meant to be completed. E.g. PEP 1. What belongs in a successful PEP? Each PEP should have the following parts: 1. Preamble -- RFC822 style headers containing meta-data about the PEP, including the PEP number, a short descriptive title (limited to a maximum of 44 characters), the names, and optionally the contact info for each author, etc. 2. Abstract -- a short (~200 word) description of the technical issue being addressed. 3. Copyright/public domain -- Each PEP must either be explicitly labelled as placed in the public domain (see this PEP as an example) or licensed under the Open Publication License[4]. 4. Specification -- The technical specification should describe the syntax and semantics of any new language feature. The specification should be detailed enough to allow competing, interoperable implementations for any of the current Python platforms (CPython, JPython, Python .NET). 5. Motivation -- The motivation is critical for PEPs that want to change the Python language. It should clearly explain why the existing language specification is inadequate to address the problem that the PEP solves. PEP submissions without sufficient motivation may be rejected outright. 6. Rationale -- The rationale fleshes out the specification by describing what motivated the design and why particular design decisions were made. It should describe alternate designs that were considered and related work, e.g. how the feature is supported in other languages. The rationale should provide evidence of consensus within the community and discuss important objections or concerns raised during discussion. 7. Backwards Compatibility -- All PEPs that introduce backwards incompatibilities must include a section describing these incompatibilities and their severity. The PEP must explain how the author proposes to deal with these incompatibilities. PEP submissions without a sufficient backwards compatibility treatise may be rejected outright. 8. Reference Implementation -- The reference implementation must be completed before any PEP is given status 'Final,' but it need not be completed before the PEP is accepted. It is better to finish the specification and rationale first and reach consensus on it before writing code. The final implementation must include test code and documentation appropriate for either the Python language reference or the standard library reference. PEP Template PEPs are written in plain ASCII text, and should adhere to a rigid style. There is a Python script that parses this style and converts the plain text PEP to HTML for viewing on the web[5]. PEP 9 contains a boilerplate[7] template you can use to get started writing your PEP. Each PEP must begin with an RFC822 style header preamble. The headers must appear in the following order. Headers marked with `*' are optional and are described below. All other headers are required. PEP: <pep number> Title: <pep title> Version: <cvs version string> Last-Modified: <cvs date string> Author: <list of authors' real names and optionally, email addrs> * Discussions-To: <email address> Status: <Draft | Active | Accepted | Deferred | Final | Replaced> Type: <Informational | Standards Track> * Requires: <pep numbers> Created: <date created on, in dd-mmm-yyyy format> * Python-Version: <version number> Post-History: <dates of postings to python-list and python-dev> * Replaces: <pep number> * Replaced-By: <pep number> The Author: header lists the names and optionally, the email addresses of all the authors/owners of the PEP. The format of the author entry should be address(a)dom.ain (Random J. User) if the email address is included, and just Random J. User if the address is not given. If there are multiple authors, each should be on a separate line following RFC 822 continuation line conventions. Note that personal email addresses in PEPs will be obscured as a defense against spam harvesters. Standards track PEPs must have a Python-Version: header which indicates the version of Python that the feature will be released with. Informational PEPs do not need a Python-Version: header. While a PEP is in private discussions (usually during the initial Draft phase), a Discussions-To: header will indicate the mailing list or URL where the PEP is being discussed. No Discussions-To: header is necessary if the PEP is being discussed privately with the author, or on the python-list or python-dev email mailing lists. Note that email addresses in the Discussions-To: header will not be obscured. Created: records the date that the PEP was assigned a number, while Post-History: is used to record the dates of when new versions of the PEP are posted to python-list and/or python-dev. Both headers should be in dd-mmm-yyyy format, e.g. 14-Aug-2001. PEPs may have a Requires: header, indicating the PEP numbers that this PEP depends on. PEPs may also have a Replaced-By: header indicating that a PEP has been rendered obsolete by a later document; the value is the number of the PEP that replaces the current document. The newer PEP must have a Replaces: header containing the number of the PEP that it rendered obsolete. PEP Formatting Requirements PEP headings must begin in column zero and the initial letter of each word must be capitalized as in book titles. Acronyms should be in all capitals. The body of each section must be indented 4 spaces. Code samples inside body sections should be indented a further 4 spaces, and other indentation can be used as required to make the text readable. You must use two blank lines between the last line of a section's body and the next section heading. You must adhere to the Emacs convention of adding two spaces at the end of every sentence. You should fill your paragraphs to column 70, but under no circumstances should your lines extend past column 79. If your code samples spill over column 79, you should rewrite them. Tab characters must never appear in the document at all. A PEP should include the standard Emacs stanza included by example at the bottom of this PEP. A PEP must contain a Copyright section, and it is strongly recommended to put the PEP in the public domain. When referencing an external web page in the body of a PEP, you should include the title of the page in the text, with a footnote reference to the URL. Do not include the URL in the body text of the PEP. E.g. Refer to the Python Language web site [1] for more details. ... [1] http://www.python.org When referring to another PEP, include the PEP number in the body text, such as "PEP 1". The title may optionally appear. Add a footnote reference that includes the PEP's title and author. It may optionally include the explicit URL on a separate line, but only in the References section. Note that the pep2html.py script will calculate URLs automatically, e.g.: ... Refer to PEP 1 [7] for more information about PEP style ... References [7] PEP 1, PEP Purpose and Guidelines, Warsaw, Hylton http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0001.html If you decide to provide an explicit URL for a PEP, please use this as the URL template: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-xxxx.html PEP numbers in URLs must be padded with zeros from the left, so as to be exactly 4 characters wide, however PEP numbers in text are never padded. Reporting PEP Bugs, or Submitting PEP Updates How you report a bug, or submit a PEP update depends on several factors, such as the maturity of the PEP, the preferences of the PEP author, and the nature of your comments. For the early draft stages of the PEP, it's probably best to send your comments and changes directly to the PEP author. For more mature, or finished PEPs you may want to submit corrections to the SourceForge bug manager[6] or better yet, the SourceForge patch manager[2] so that your changes don't get lost. If the PEP author is a SF developer, assign the bug/patch to him, otherwise assign it to the PEP editor. When in doubt about where to send your changes, please check first with the PEP author and/or PEP editor. PEP authors who are also SF committers, can update the PEPs themselves by using "cvs commit" to commit their changes. Remember to also push the formatted PEP text out to the web by doing the following: % python pep2html.py -i NUM where NUM is the number of the PEP you want to push out. See % python pep2html.py --help for details. Transferring PEP Ownership It occasionally becomes necessary to transfer ownership of PEPs to a new champion. In general, we'd like to retain the original author as a co-author of the transferred PEP, but that's really up to the original author. A good reason to transfer ownership is because the original author no longer has the time or interest in updating it or following through with the PEP process, or has fallen off the face of the 'net (i.e. is unreachable or not responding to email). A bad reason to transfer ownership is because you don't agree with the direction of the PEP. We try to build consensus around a PEP, but if that's not possible, you can always submit a competing PEP. If you are interested assuming ownership of a PEP, send a message asking to take over, addressed to both the original author and the PEP editor <peps(a)python.org>. If the original author doesn't respond to email in a timely manner, the PEP editor will make a unilateral decision (it's not like such decisions can be reversed. :). References and Footnotes [1] This historical record is available by the normal CVS commands for retrieving older revisions. For those without direct access to the CVS tree, you can browse the current and past PEP revisions via the SourceForge web site at http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/python/nondist/peps/?cvsroot=… [2] http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=5470&atid=305470 [3] http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse [4] http://www.opencontent.org/openpub/ [5] The script referred to here is pep2html.py, which lives in the same directory in the CVS tree as the PEPs themselves. Try "pep2html.py --help" for details. The URL for viewing PEPs on the web is http://www.python.org/peps/ [6] http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=5470&atid=305470 [7] PEP 9, Sample PEP Template http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0009.html Copyright This document has been placed in the public domain. Local Variables: mode: indented-text indent-tabs-mode: nil sentence-end-double-space: t fill-column: 70 End:

8 14

Surely "nullable" is a reasonable name?
by Larry Hastings 25 Apr '15

25 Apr '15

Argument Clinic "converters" specify how to convert an individual argument to the function you're defining. Although a converter could theoretically represent any sort of conversion, most of the time they directly represent types like "int" or "double" or "str". Because there's such variety in argument parsing, the converters are customizable with parameters. Many of these are common enough that Argument Clinic suggests some standard names. Examples: "zeroes=True" for strings and buffers means "permit internal \0 characters", and "bitwise=True" for unsigned integers means "copy the bits over, even if there's overflow/underflow, and even if the original is negative". A third example is "nullable=True", which means "also accept None for this parameter". This was originally intended for use with strings (compare the "s" and "z" format units for PyArg_ParseTuple), however it looks like we'll have a use for "nullable ints" in the ongoing Argument Clinic conversion work. Several people have said they found the name "nullable" surprising, suggesting I use another name like "allow_none" or "noneable". I, in turn, find their surprise surprising; "nullable" is a term long associated with exactly this concept. It's used in C# and SQL, and the term even has its own Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullable_type Most amusingly, Vala *used* to have an annotation called "(allow-none)", but they've broken it out into two annotations, "(nullable)" and "(optional)". http://blogs.gnome.org/desrt/2014/05/27/allow-none-is-dead-long-live-nullab… Before you say "the term 'nullable' will confuse end users", let me remind you: this is not user-facing. This is a parameter for an Argument Clinic converter, and will only ever be seen by CPython core developers. A group which I hope is not so easily confused. It's my contention that "nullable" is the correct name. But I've been asked to bring up the topic for discussion, to see if a consensus forms around this or around some other name. Let the bike-shedding begin, //arry/

13 29

libffi embedded in CPython
by Maciej Fijalkowski 26 Mar '15

26 Mar '15

After reading this http://bugs.python.org/issue23085 and remembering struggling having our own patches into cpython's libffi (but not into libffi itself), I wonder, is there any reason any more for libffi being included in CPython? Cheers, fijal

18 57

Any volunteers to implement PEP 479?
by Guido van Rossum 05 Mar '15

05 Mar '15

There's a proof of concept patch in http://bugs.python.org/issue22906, but it doesn't have the __future__ import and probably gets other details wrong. Reference: PEP 479 -- Change StopIteration handling inside generators <https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0479/> -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

3 3

Update to PEP 11 to clarify garnering platform support
by Brett Cannon 27 Feb '15

27 Feb '15

Here is some proposed wording. Since it is more of a clarification of what it takes to garner support -- which is just a new section -- rather than a complete rewrite I'm including just the diff to make it easier to read the changes. *diff -r 49d18bb47ebc pep-0011.txt* *--- a/pep-0011.txt Wed May 14 11:18:22 2014 -0400* *+++ b/pep-0011.txt Fri May 16 13:48:30 2014 -0400* @@ -2,22 +2,21 @@ Title: Removing support for little used platforms Version: $Revision$ Last-Modified: $Date$ -Author: martin(a)v.loewis.de (Martin von Löwis) +Author: Martin von Löwis <martin(a)v.loewis.de>, + Brett Cannon <brett(a)python.org> Status: Active Type: Process Content-Type: text/x-rst Created: 07-Jul-2002 Post-History: 18-Aug-2007 + 16-May-2014 Abstract -------- -This PEP documents operating systems (platforms) which are not -supported in Python anymore. For some of these systems, -supporting code might be still part of Python, but will be removed -in a future release - unless somebody steps forward as a volunteer -to maintain this code. +This PEP documents how an operating system (platform) garners +support in Python as well as documenting past support. Rationale @@ -37,16 +36,53 @@ change to the Python source code will work on all supported platforms. -To reduce this risk, this PEP proposes a procedure to remove code -for platforms with no Python users. +To reduce this risk, this PEP specifies what is required for a +platform to be considered supported by Python as well as providing a +procedure to remove code for platforms with little or no Python +users. +Supporting platforms +-------------------- + +Gaining official platform support requires two things. First, a core +developer needs to volunteer to maintain platform-specific code. This +core developer can either already be a member of the Python +development team or be given contributor rights on the basis of +maintaining platform support (it is at the discretion of the Python +development team to decide if a person is ready to have such rights +even if it is just for supporting a specific platform). + +Second, a stable buildbot must be provided [2]_. This guarantees that +platform support will not be accidentally broken by a Python core +developer who does not have personal access to the platform. For a +buildbot to be considered stable it requires that the machine be +reliably up and functioning (but it is up to the Python core +developers to decide whether to promote a buildbot to being +considered stable). + +This policy does not disqualify supporting other platforms +indirectly. Patches which are not platform-specific but still done to +add platform support will be considered for inclusion. For example, +if platform-independent changes were necessary in the configure +script which was motivated to support a specific platform that would +be accepted. Patches which add platform-specific code such as the +name of a specific platform to the configure script will generally +not be accepted without the platform having official support. + +CPU architecture and compiler support are viewed in a similar manner +as platforms. For example, to consider the ARM architecture supported +a buildbot running on ARM would be required along with support from +the Python development team. In general it is not required to have +a CPU architecture run under every possible platform in order to be +considered supported. Unsupporting platforms ---------------------- -If a certain platform that currently has special code in it is -deemed to be without Python users, a note must be posted in this -PEP that this platform is no longer actively supported. This +If a certain platform that currently has special code in Python is +deemed to be without Python users or lacks proper support from the +Python development team and/or a buildbot, a note must be posted in +this PEP that this platform is no longer actively supported. This note must include: - the name of the system @@ -69,8 +105,8 @@ forward and offer maintenance. -Resupporting platforms ----------------------- +Re-supporting platforms +----------------------- If a user of a platform wants to see this platform supported again, he may volunteer to maintain the platform support. Such an @@ -101,7 +137,7 @@ release is made. Developers of extension modules will generally need to use the same Visual Studio release; they are concerned both with the availability of the versions they need to use, and with keeping -the zoo of versions small. The Python source tree will keep +the zoo of versions small. The Python source tree will keep unmaintained build files for older Visual Studio releases, for which patches will be accepted. Such build files will be removed from the source tree 3 years after the extended support for the compiler has @@ -223,6 +259,7 @@ ---------- .. [1] http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/ +.. [2] http://buildbot.python.org/3.x.stable/ Copyright ---------

3 4

ubuntu buildbot
by Benjamin Peterson 27 Feb '15

27 Feb '15

Hi David, I noticed you run the "Builder x86 Ubuntu Shared" buildbot. It seems it's running a very old version of Ubuntu. Is there any chance of getting that updated? Regards, Benjamin

2 4

Re: [Python-Dev] Newly Built Python3 Binary Throws Segfault
by Cyd Haselton 31 Jan '15

31 Jan '15

Unfortunately it is still reporting the same function :-/. On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 1:44 PM, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Yes... > > Can you check if it's crashing in a different function now? > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Cyd Haselton <chaselton(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Yes I did. I did have to enter all the information in manually...I'm >> not familiar with automated patch application tools and even if I >> were, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have them on my device. >> >> Just so that I'm absolutely sure I got everything correct...you wanted >> all of the lines in the patch commented out, correct? Basically >> everything referencing oldloc? >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > Are you sure the patch was applied correctly? I was SO sure it would >> > work! >> > >> > FYI, you tried the patch I attached to the email message, right? >> > >> > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Cyd Haselton <chaselton(a)gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Update: I did try the patch after getting it installed correctly, but >> >> I'm still getting a segfault on the newly built binary. >> >> Will post info this afternoon. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19(a)gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > No, it returns NULL if malloc gives it a raw pointer. It >> >> > unconditionally >> >> > checks the length of the (possibly null) string argument first. >> >> > >> >> > Please try the patch I attached in the last email. It *might* fix the >> >> > issue. >> >> > Android has crappy locale handling. >> >> > >> >> > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Cyd Haselton <chaselton(a)gmail.com> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Unless i'm reading something incorrectly, _PyMem_RawStrdup is >> >> >> currently returning NULL when given a null pointer. >> >> >> >> >> >> From obmalloc.c >> >> >> >> >> >> _PyMem_RawStrdup(const char *str) >> >> >> { >> >> >> size_t size; >> >> >> char *copy; >> >> >> size = strlen(str) + 1; >> >> >> copy = PyMem_RawMalloc(size); >> >> >> if (copy == NULL) >> >> >> return NULL; >> >> >> memcpy(copy, str, size); >> >> >> return copy; >> >> >> } >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19(a)gmail.com> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > I seriously doubt the issue is in that file; _PyMem_RawStrdup >> >> >> > crashes >> >> >> > when >> >> >> > calling strlen. It's that whatever is calling it is likely asking >> >> >> > it >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > duplicate a null pointer. Basically, it's probably the caller's >> >> >> > fault. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > You could always try modifying _PyMem_RawStrdup to return NULL >> >> >> > when >> >> >> > given a >> >> >> > null pointer and see where it then segfaults. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Cyd Haselton >> >> >> > <chaselton(a)gmail.com> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Alternatively, is there a hassle-free way to find out what >> >> >> >> changed >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> obmalloc.c between 2.7.x and 3.4.x? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:29 AM, Cyd Haselton >> >> >> >> <chaselton(a)gmail.com> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > There's a related strdup patch for readline.c, mentioned >> >> >> >> > here:http://bugs.python.org/issue21390 and here >> >> >> >> > https://github.com/rave-engine/python3-android/issues/2. >> >> >> >> > There's a patch, but I'm not sure how to modify it for >> >> >> >> > obmalloc.c, >> >> >> >> > as >> >> >> >> > (I think) the functions all belong to Python...they're all >> >> >> >> > prefixed >> >> >> >> > with _PyXx >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Cyd Haselton >> >> >> >> > <chaselton(a)gmail.com> >> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Absolutely. Good thing I have addr2line on device >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> /bld/python/Python-3.4.2 $ addr2line -C -f -e >> >> >> >> >> /lib/libpython3.4m.so.1.0 >> >> >> >> >> 0008bbc8 >> >> >> >> >> _PyMem_RawStrdup >> >> >> >> >> /bld/python/Python-3.4.2/Objects/obmalloc.c:323 >> >> >> >> >> /bld/python/Python-3.4.2 $ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Ryan <rymg19(a)gmail.com> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> Could you try the steps at >> >> >> >> >>> http://stackoverflow.com/a/11369475/2097780? They >> >> >> >> >>> allow you to get a better idea of where libc is crashing. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> Cyd Haselton <chaselton(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Managed to get this out of logcat: >> >> >> >> >>>> F(11914) Fatal signal 11 (SIGSEGV) at 0x00000000 (code=1), >> >> >> >> >>>> thread >> >> >> >> >>>> 11914 (python) (libc) >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> [ 01-29 19:30:55.855 23373:23373 F/libc ] >> >> >> >> >>>> Fatal signal 11 (SIGSEGV) at 0x00000000 (code=1), thread >> >> >> >> >>>> 23373 >> >> >> >> >>>> (python) >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Less detail than strace but it seems to be that python is >> >> >> >> >>>> segfaulting >> >> >> >> >>>> libc... >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Ryan Gonzalez >> >> >> >> >>>> <rymg19(a)gmail.com> >> >> >> >> >>>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Guido van Rossum >> >> >> >> >>>>> <guido(a)python.org> >> >> >> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> What I see in the strace: >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> ... load libpython3.4m.so.1.0 >> >> >> >> >>>>>> ... load libm >> >> >> >> >>>>>> ... open /dev/__properties__ and do something to it >> >> >> >> >>>>>> (what?) >> >> >> >> >>>>>> ... get current time >> >> >> >> >>>>>> ... allocate memory >> >> >> >> >>>>>> ... getuid >> >> >> >> >>>>>> ... segfault >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> That's not a lot to go on, but it doesn't look as if it >> >> >> >> >>>>>> has >> >> >> >> >>>>>> started to >> >> >> >> >>>>>> load modules yet. >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> Does /dev/__properties__ ring a bell? Not to me. >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> https://android.googlesource.com/platform/system/core/+/tools_r22/init/prop… >> >> >> >> >>>>> is the code that works with that file. >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> This explains it a bit (slides 24-29). Looks like >> >> >> >> >>>>> something >> >> >> >> >>>>> to >> >> >> >> >>>>> do >> >> >> >> >>>>> with >> >> >> >> >>>>> interprocess communication. Likely has nothing to do with >> >> >> >> >>>>> Python >> >> >> >> >>>>> itself. >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> Maybe this would be useful? >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> That stack trace would be really helpful. >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Cyd Haselton >> >> >> >> >>>>>> <chaselton(a)gmail.com> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> Apologies...I'm not sure what a stack track is, but I do >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> have >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> the >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> strace. Nearest I can tell, it happens due to an open >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> call, >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> though I >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> am probably wrong. >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> Attaching the strace output to this email. I'm going to >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> head >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> back to >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> the documentation and to back out of some >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> Android-related >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> changes >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> in >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> _localemodule.c >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Guido van Rossum >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> <guido(a)python.org> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> There could be a million differences relevant (unicode, >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> ints, >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> ...). >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> Perhaps >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> the importlib bootstrap is failing. Perhaps the dynamic >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> loading >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> code >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> changed. Did you get a stack track? (IIRC strace shows >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> a >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> syscall >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> trace >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> -- >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> also useful, but doesn't tell you precisely how >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> it segfaulted.) >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 6:43 AM, Cyd Haselton >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> <chaselton(a)gmail.com> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> All, >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> I recently ditched my attempts to port Python 2.7.8 to >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> Android >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> in >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> favor of Python 3.4.2. Unfortunately, after using the >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> same >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> configure >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> options in the same environment, and modifying the >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> setup.py >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> as >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> needed, >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> the newly built binary throws a segfault when the >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> generate-posix-vars >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> portion of the build is reached...and when it is run >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> as >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> well >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> (i.e. >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> ./python --help, ./python -E -S -m sysconfig, or >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> similar) >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> I took a strace of ./python, however I'm a bit lost >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> when >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> reviewing >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> it. >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> Any ideas as to what may be going on...i.e. why Python >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> 2.7 >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> works but >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> 3.x throws a segfault? >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance, >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> Cyd >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> Python-Dev mailing list >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> Python-Dev(a)python.org >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/guido%40python.org >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> -- >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> -- >> >> >> >> >>>>>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> ________________________________ >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> Python-Dev mailing list >> >> >> >> >>>>>> Python-Dev(a)python.org >> >> >> >> >>>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev >> >> >> >> >>>>>> Unsubscribe: >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/rymg19%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> -- >> >> >> >> >>>>> Ryan >> >> >> >> >>>>> If anybody ever asks me why I prefer C++ to C, my answer >> >> >> >> >>>>> will >> >> >> >> >>>>> be >> >> >> >> >>>>> simple: >> >> >> >> >>>>> "It's becauseslejfp23(@#Q*(E*EIdc-SEGFAULT. Wait, I don't >> >> >> >> >>>>> think >> >> >> >> >>>>> that was >> >> >> >> >>>>> nul-terminated." >> >> >> >> >>>>> Personal reality distortion fields are immune to >> >> >> >> >>>>> contradictory >> >> >> >> >>>>> evidence. >> >> >> >> >>>>> - >> >> >> >> >>>>> srean >> >> >> >> >>>>> Check out my website: http://kirbyfan64.github.io/ >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >> >> >>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my >> >> >> >> >>> brevity. >> >> >> >> >>> Check out my website: http://kirbyfan64.github.io/ >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > Ryan >> >> >> > If anybody ever asks me why I prefer C++ to C, my answer will be >> >> >> > simple: >> >> >> > "It's becauseslejfp23(@#Q*(E*EIdc-SEGFAULT. Wait, I don't think >> >> >> > that >> >> >> > was >> >> >> > nul-terminated." >> >> >> > Personal reality distortion fields are immune to contradictory >> >> >> > evidence. >> >> >> > - >> >> >> > srean >> >> >> > Check out my website: http://kirbyfan64.github.io/ >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Ryan >> >> > If anybody ever asks me why I prefer C++ to C, my answer will be >> >> > simple: >> >> > "It's becauseslejfp23(@#Q*(E*EIdc-SEGFAULT. Wait, I don't think that >> >> > was >> >> > nul-terminated." >> >> > Personal reality distortion fields are immune to contradictory >> >> > evidence. >> >> > - >> >> > srean >> >> > Check out my website: http://kirbyfan64.github.io/ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Ryan >> > If anybody ever asks me why I prefer C++ to C, my answer will be simple: >> > "It's becauseslejfp23(@#Q*(E*EIdc-SEGFAULT. Wait, I don't think that was >> > nul-terminated." >> > Personal reality distortion fields are immune to contradictory evidence. >> > - >> > srean >> > Check out my website: http://kirbyfan64.github.io/ > > > > > -- > Ryan > If anybody ever asks me why I prefer C++ to C, my answer will be simple: > "It's becauseslejfp23(@#Q*(E*EIdc-SEGFAULT. Wait, I don't think that was > nul-terminated." > Personal reality distortion fields are immune to contradictory evidence. - > srean > Check out my website: http://kirbyfan64.github.io/

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Results of the python 2.x and 3.x use survey, 2014 edition
by Bruno Cauet 31 Jan '15

31 Jan '15

Hi! Finally, here are the results: http://blog.frite-camembert.net/python-survey-2014.html Here is the auto-generated Google Forms recap: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1DqxkNi4GvyTCu54usSdE1DjW29zw1tc52iMeH3z4he… (more elegant than my matplotlib graphs - I'd have no future as a designer). Overall people started writing more python 3: +15 points in "I ever wrote python 3 code", +10 points in "I write more python 3 than 2". Transition is still ongoing and I hope a tipping point will be soon be attained. Users definitely seem to want to switch to python 3, but dependencies keep them with 2.7 (I weep for the few ones still on 2.5). I also posted the results on HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8967645) and reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/2u3oh0/results_of_the_python_2x_and…). Have a nice day, and a year full of python 3! Bruno Cauet

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Can Python Be Built Without Distutils
by Cyd Haselton 30 Jan '15

30 Jan '15

Related to my earlier question regarding building Python on Android and an undefined reference to dlopen error...I have the following question: Is it possible to build and install Python without having to build and install...or use...distutils? Some background: I can build the python interpreter on my device, and I can build a bunch of modules. The problem appears when make reaches the part where setup.py is used to build and import modules...specifically when setup.py attempts to import distutils.core. Thanks, Cyd

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Newly Built Python3 Binary Throws Segfault
by Cyd Haselton 30 Jan '15

30 Jan '15

All, I recently ditched my attempts to port Python 2.7.8 to Android in favor of Python 3.4.2. Unfortunately, after using the same configure options in the same environment, and modifying the setup.py as needed, the newly built binary throws a segfault when the generate-posix-vars portion of the build is reached...and when it is run as well (i.e. ./python --help, ./python -E -S -m sysconfig, or similar) I took a strace of ./python, however I'm a bit lost when reviewing it. Any ideas as to what may be going on...i.e. why Python 2.7 works but 3.x throws a segfault? Thanks in advance, Cyd

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