Tarek, Guido,
Forgive my grumpy tone..
Looking positive, if we now have a rough consensus that the PEPS might represent some 300+ lines of code... then good - lets get started, that's all that I meant. I'm glad above all, that you noticed that part foremost.
If it's a simple case that alternative's to the solutions cannot be considered - because I am grumpy - whatever, then that's something I can live with. I didn't know that proposing a different solution wasn't a good idea.
PS. Submitting a counter-PEP to the peps editors that hasn't been discussed on the SIG list at all is also a bad move. You really need to change the way you try to interact with the SIG.
Here are the references to the discussions from distutils-sig. In these references you'll see that my interaction with the list was not grumpy but was entirely positive. I feel that I got a fair hearing on distutils list and I had a number of supporters to my proposal.
The proposal is in the final stages of being wrapped up.
Here are the discussion References that have occurred over the year:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-November/thread.html
November 2009 Archives by thread
* Messages sorted by: [ subject ] [ author ] [ date ] * More info on this list...
Starting: Sun Nov 1 09:31:46 CET 2009 Ending: Fri Nov 6 00:09:22 CET 2009 Messages: 65
* [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Georg Brandl o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Floris Bruynooghe + [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Georg Brandl + [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon # [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Georg Brandl # [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-October/thread.html
# [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon
* [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Eric Smith o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon * [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau * [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Floris Bruynooghe o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Floris Bruynooghe o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Ian Bicking o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Fred Drake o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Kevin Teague o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Fred Drake o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Piotr Ozarowski o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Piotr Ozarowski o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Fred Drake o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Fred Drake o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Eric Smith o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Fred Drake o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-August/thread.html [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé
* [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Hanno Schlichting * [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg P.J. Eby o [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé * [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon o [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Jeff Rush + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Ben Finney + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Eric Smith + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Chris Withers + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Chris Withers * [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon o [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Sridhar Ratnakumar + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon o [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Alex Grönholm + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Floris Bruynooghe + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Ronald Oussoren + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg P.J. Eby + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Chris Withers o [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Chris Withers + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Chris Withers + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-July/thread.html
# [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Lyon # [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) P.J. Eby
* [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Eric Smith * [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Cournapeau o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Cournapeau o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Cournapeau o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Tres Seaver o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Questions about virtual-python on ubuntu David Lyon o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Paul Moore o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Lyon o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Lyon o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Lyon
# [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure David Lyon # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure Jeff Rush # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure David Lyon # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure P.J. Eby # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure David Lyon # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure Jean-Paul Calderone # [Distutils] Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure David Lyon # [Distutils] Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure Jean-Paul Calderone # [Distutils] Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure David Lyon [Distutils] introspecting package data Chris Withers
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-June/thread.html
* [Distutils] introspecting package data Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] introspecting package data Chris Withers + [Distutils] introspecting package data Jim Fulton + [Distutils] introspecting package data Chris Withers + [Distutils] introspecting package data Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] introspecting package data David Lyon
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:18:12 -0800, Guido van Rossum guido@python.org wrote:
David, you have an attitude problem. Your contributions (the post below is just an example) don't sound healthy to me -- you just complain and whine and denigrate Tarek's work. In a previous post you claimed to have had a particular idea first (it doesn't matter which idea) and you managed to make it sound bad that your idea was eventually accepted. This is not a productive attitude.
Surely the problem isn't writing 300 lines of code. The problem is getting everyone to agree on which 300 lines of code should be written. That is the problem at hand, and claiming that nothing happened because no code was written and all that was agreed on amounts to 300 lines of code is outright demeaning.
Stop it. You are wearing out your welcome.
--Guido
PS. Submitting a counter-PEP to the peps editors that hasn't been discussed on the SIG list at all is also a bad move. You really need to change the way you try to interact with the SIG.
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:29 PM, David Lyon david.lyon@preisshare.net wrote:
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:35:41 +0100, Tarek Ziadé ziade.tarek@gmail.com wrote:
PEP 376 is working on a default, unified, *installation* format, that tries to gather the good ideas of Pip, Setuptools etc.. and propose a unified format for our site-packages. This new standard will come with APIs in pkgutil to be able to query installed distribution etc. This work is also linked to PEP 345 work where we are modifying the Metadata, and to PEP 386 that proposes a standard version comparison scheme.
Perphaps..
But if you put all these PEPs together, implementing all the new
features
can't come to more than 300 lines of code...
Since we hardly got anywhere on them in 2009, it will be interesting to see how much of it gets done in 2010.
But there's no plan to include a new *distribution* format in
Distutils.
I wasn't suggesting that - at all.
And saying that 'eggs' are a *new* python package format isn't really really helpful because to my understanding they've been around for some number of years.
No, i won't raise why we have EGG_INFO directories and a whole lot of half working egg stuff in standard python... I'm just asking why it can't be more consistant? while we're on the refactoring topic.
Be fair...
I'm saying finish what is already there.. or take out the crap ..
It isn't fair to suggest that I am somehow asking for some big change when I am simply pointing out all the junk that's in there that's already half built.
In any case those PEPs are not finished yet, so everyone can help at distutils-SIG
True - and False.
But I've been on the list for some twelve months asking for work to help out with, and haven't been assigned a single task to do yet.
Seriously, if you won't allocate work out to people then how can it get done?
Whilst I personally think a lot of the stuff in those PEPs is not high on quality, why don't we just get them implemented anyway?
I'm a fairly proficient develper, but I can't get assigned a single work item..
And to me, it doesn't seem any harder than just selecting 'djlyon' on the python tracker for some work items...
Surely those PEPs all amount to 300+ lines of code. With two people working on it, that's only surely 150+ lines of code each... That shouldn't be such a big challenge for 2010..
David
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