Eric> Yes, but the 4004 was designed as a sort of lobotomized imitation Eric> of the 65xx, which was descended from the 11. Really? I was always under the impression the 4004 was considered the first microprocessor. The page below says that and gives a date of 1971 for it. I have no idea if the author is correct, just that what he says agrees with my memory. He does seem to have an impressive collection of old computer iron: http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/i4004/ I haven't found a statement about the origins of the 6502, but this page suggests that commercial computers were being made from 8080's before 6502's: http://www.speer.org/2backup/pcbs_pch.html Ah, wait a minute... This page: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Byte/6508/6502/english/versoes.htm says the 6502 was descended from the 6800. I'm getting less and less convinced that the 4004 somehow descended from the 65xx family. (Maybe we should shift this thread to the always entertaining folks at comp.arch... ;-) Skip