Ivan Pozdeev wrote:
> More information is not better if that information is harmful rather than helpful.
While that argument does apply in some cases, I'd have to very much disagree that "<socket.AF_UNIX: 1>" is harmful in comparison to just "1"; it clearly shows the value on the right side of the colon. As for the source location for "socket.AF_UNIX" not being clear, that may be the case the first time you encounter it or haven't seen it in a while, but it's clear from a quick search of the help page.
IMO, the full location shouldn't have to appear every time you want to see the repr; it would add unneeded noise. If you see the repr and it's not clear, consult the help page and/or docs for more information. The repr should be succinct.
>
And help() doesn't even show the value!
Sorry, but this is simply untrue. If you scroll down on the help page, or search via "/" for "AF_UNIX", you'll encounter the following:
| AF_UNIX = <AddressFamily.AF_UNIX: 1>
(which is likely what Ethan was referring to)
If it wasn't clear, when you use "help(socket.AF_UNIX)", it brings up the AddressFamily help page (as indicated in the title), not a dedicated page for "socket.AF_UNIX". You can also find the information present in the "help(socket)" page if you search for "AF_UNIX".
>
Pardon me if I misunderstood you, but I also find the offhand remarks:
"adding this and that to your debugging list would also be, um,
> helpful" -- highly condescending and insulting and showing that you
probably don't do much problem diagnostic and don't care at all about
> anyone who does -- i.e. about software developers and maintainers, your core audience.
From my perspective, Ethan pointed out "help()" because it's very frequently neglected, even by experienced devs; not at all to be condescending towards you or insulting of your experience. However, explicitly claiming that "you
probably don't do much problem diagnostic and don't care at all about anyone who does" is *directly* insulting and doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion. Insulting the other party, especially when they're responding to you voluntarily and not paid to do so, makes them far less likely to consider your side or even respond at all.
Rather than the extreme of "either you agree with me or don't have experience with this", is it not possible that you simply disagree and have different preferences in what makes more for more optimal debugging information?
>
All the while yourself being a Python core developer (if your
StackOverflow profile is to be believed) -- a spokesperson for the dev
team
> and a shining example of what every Python developer should strive to be.
I'm not sure what the purpose of the "if your
StackOverflow profile is to be believed" part is, but the list of Python core developers can be found here: https://devguide.python.org/developers/ (where "Ethan Furman" is clearly listed).
>
If this is any representation of the prevalent attitude in the core team
now, I'm probably wasting my time arguing here as well as
> supporting Python in general since our values clearly don't match anymore.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. But if you considered the discussion to be a waste of time, then I don't think python-dev (or similar OSS dev communities) will be a very productive experience for you. Also, just to be clear: the opinion of one or a few core devs does not represent the opinions or values of the entire core team. The core team is made up of ~100 current individuals with differing opinions, areas of expertise, and perspectives.