I agree with you it is over the top, but let's enjoy the popcorn together!

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 01:35, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
Sorry for fanning the flames, but this whole thread is so over
the top I'm finding it kind of entertaining.

On 1/07/20 2:23 am, Piper Thunstrom wrote:
> The grammarian movement, in general, was built on
> elevating a very specific form of English over others. It specifically
> was chosen to avoid "lower class" usages

This argument seems to rest on the assumption that "lower
class" equates to "non-white". This is an extremely US-centric
idea. It could possibly even be described as exhibiting a
"breathtaking level of ignorance"...

> the
> Elements of Style (And many works like it) are built on a system of
> white supremacy.

If that's true, then the entirety of Western culture is built
on a system of white supremacy. That includes all our modern
technology. It includes the Python programming language. We'd
better stop recommending Python to people!

I kind of of agree with your (attempt) at reductio ad absurdum: Python and Western culture is built on a system of white supremacy (read: white privilege, academic definition of the word), and if we were not trying to fix this (by changes like the one in this commit, or the PSFs stance on inclusivity in the CoC and active work towards this) I would probably actually recommend people to stop using Python: I have stopped watching content because I do not agree with the stances taken by its creator, even when it has not directly affected the content (insofar as I can tell). To take your argument itself to the extreme and Godwin myself, if a neonazi group developped an amazing programming language that had a swastika for its symbol and was littered with references to the Nazis and their ideology, would you recommend it?

> Each individual who likes
> Elements of Style is not wrong for liking the book, you can keep it on
> your shelf and no one will be angry.

Okay, I'm confused. S&W is a symbol of white supremacy that
shall never be recommended or mentioned in polite company, but
it's all right to have one on your shelf, as long as you keep it
to yourself... or something?

You can't have it both ways.

What I think was meant here: S&W is inappropriate to use as a community guideline for a diverse community like Python because it is not inclusive and forces (a particular version of) "Standard English" on others, however, you using it for your own writing (while not imposing it on others) is not an issue. As an analogy, in the US it is illegal (as determined by the Supreme Court) for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in school, even when those who wish can excuse themselves from reciting it, on the other hand, if a state official composed an official before-school prayer but that was not required to be recited in school, this would be legal and it would be fine for a parent to frame it, display it and have their child pray it before leaving for school: it would then even be ok for the kid to tell the others and their teacher that that's what they do at home!

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