On Wed, 31 May 2000, Paul Prescod wrote:
Greg Stein wrote:
Hehe... you make it sound like I'm a criminal on trial :-)
Sorry about that. But I'll bet you didn't expect this inquisition did you?
Well, of course not. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Hmm. But you're not Spanish. Dang...
I share that concern, and raised it during the formation of python-dev. It appears that the pipermail archive is truncated (nothing before April last year). Honestly, though, I would have to say that I am/was more concerned with the *perception* rather than actual result.
Right, that perception is making people in comp-lang-python get a little frustrated, paranoid, alienated and nasty. And relaying conversations from here to there and back puts Fredrik in a bad mood which isn't good for anyone.
Understood. I don't have a particular solution to the problem, but I also believe that python-lang is not going to be a benefit/solution.
Hmm. How about this: you stated the premise is to generate proposals for language features, extensions, additions, whatever. If that is the only goal, then consider a web-based system: anybody can post a "feature" with a description/spec/code/whatever; each feature has threaded comments attached to it; the kicker: each feature has votes (+1/+0/-0/-1).
When you have a feature with a total vote of +73, then you know that it needs to be looked at in more detail. All votes are open (not anonymous). Features can be revised, in an effort to remedy issues raised by -1 voters (and thus turn them into +1 votes).
People can review features and votes in a quick pass. If they prefer to take more time, then they can also review comments.
Of course, this is only a suggestion. I've got so many other projects that I'd like to code up right now, then I would not want to sign up for something like this :-)
did not include meta-sig because (or python-list) because my issue is really with the accidental elitism of the python-dev setup. If
I disagree with the term "accidental elitism." I would call it "purposeful meritocracy."
The reason I think that it is accidental is because I don't think that anyone expected so many of us to abandon comp.lang.python and thus our direct connection to Python's user base.
I would still disagree with your "elitism" term, but the side-effect is definitely accidental and unfortunate. It may even be arguable whether python-dev *is* responsible for that. The SIGs had much more traffic before python-dev, too. I might suggest that the SIGs were the previous "low-noise" forum (in favor of c.l.py). python-dev yanked focus from the SIGs, and only a little from c.l.py (I think c.l.py's burgeoning traffic reduced readership on its own).
It just happened that way due to human nature. That forum is full of stuff that you or I don't care about -- compiling on AIX, ADO programming on Windows, Perl idioms, LDAP (oops, that's here!) etc, and this one is noise-free. I'm saying that we could have a middle ground where we trade a little noise for a little democracy -- if only in perception.
Admirable, but I think it would be ineffectual. People would be confused about where to post. Too many forums, with arbitrary/unclear lines about which to use.
How do you like your new job at DataChannel? Rate it on 1-100. "83" you say? Well, why not 82? What is the difference between 82 and 83?
"Why does this post belong on c.l.py, and not on python-lang?"
The result will be cross-posting because people will want to ensure they reach the right people/forum.
Of course, people will also post to the "wrong" forum. Confusion, lack of care, whatever.
I think that perl-porters and linux-kernel are open lists? The dictators and demigods just had to learn to filter a little. By keeping "python-dev" for immediately important things and implementation details, we will actually make it easier to get the day to day pumpkin passing done.
Yes, they are. And Dick Hardt has expressed the opinion that perl-porters is practically useless. He was literally dumbfounded when I told him that python-dev is (near) zero-noise.
The Linux guys filter very well. I don't know enough of, say, Alan's or Linus' other mailing subscriptions to know whether that is the only thing they subscribe to, or just one of many. I could easily see keeping up with linux-kernel if that was your only mailing list. I also suspect there is plenty of out-of-band mail going on between Linus and his "lieutenants" when they forward patches to him (and his inevitable replies, rejections, etc).