On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:53 AM Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giampaolo Rodola' <g.rodola@gmail.com> wrote:
This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation of the Python elections ~2 years ago. It is not normal what is going on here. People are scared. And it is pretty much guaranteed that this is not gonna be the last occurrence of it. On the horizon we have other language-related controversies like "whitelist" / "blacklist", renaming "master" to "main" in GIT, and who knows what else (maybe "whitespace"? or @property?).
I don't have words for the irony of complaining about changing words while objecting to the wording in a commit message.
They are two different things. One thing is changing some words to make a concept more clear. I said I agree with it. Another thing is using that as an excuse to deliver a political message. That I don't agree with. I'm tired of it. I'm literally overwhelmed by it. I open Twitter and I see politics. I open Facebook and I see politics. That's fine. But why should I see politics also here? I don't know.
And every time that's gonna happen the motivation is gonna be about white supremacy/privilege/guilt etc. Because it's always about that, and we'll be having this discussion once again. On one hand Python gladly takes our patches and everything is smooth,
I'm not sure who 'our' is in this sentence, but I'm certainly not glad Python ever took any of your patches. No contribution to Python outweighs the harm you're doing by espousing and advocating for these views. This kind of sentiment scares away a lot of valuable contributors -- I know this because *they have told me* --
I can say exactly the same thing. There are different people in this thread and other threads who publicly said they are uncomfortable with this situation. They don't espouse or advocate for any view in particular. And me neither, because complaining about X doesn't necessarily mean wanting to push for Y. I don't want to push for X nor Y. And I don't want to be put in a situation where I am forced to advocate for X or Y, or be vilified if I don't agree with X as it happens here. It's just not the right place because it's too close to the personal sphere (work, etc.). Some texted me privately exactly as they did with you, because they are afraid of repercussions in that regard (work). Others posted anonymously for the same reason. Does that seem normal, sane or "welcoming" to you? Do you think it's helping anybody anywhere? It is not. It is not me who's doing this *in the least*. I'm merely calling it out.
on the other hand it wants us to not only accept "this" and be quiet, but also to take a stand and be an ally in the battle against the vocabulary "or else". So what's the point of contributing if the emotional distress and the risk that comes with it are so high?
This is exactly why we want you to stop, yes. You're causing a lot of emotional distress in people, and putting people at risk. You're even causing it in people *in your purported demographic*, like me, let alone the people you're trying to disadvantage. Stop it.
I'm not putting anybody at risk except myself.
In the previous discussion preceding this one where one PSF member left because it all got so political, somebody posted anonymously (and gently) for fear of repercussions. The same fear has been expressed in this thread. In the other thread it has even been suggested that "being silent re. <the cause>" == "being complicit". I mean, are you serious? I explicitly avoided to comment on that because I didn't even know where to begin to explain how profoundly wrong that is on so many different levels. How irrespectful it is to ask people who just want to contribute some code here to take precise political sides or be damned if they don't. How unfair it is to do that especially towards old-time contributors. And now I even have to hope some moderator will be reasonable enough not to mark my emails as "white suprematism" (LOL) and send them through. This is just ridiculous. I've never been pro-CoC, but even if I were, this is what the enforcement part of the CoC dictates:
https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/enforcement/ Reports that are not made in good faith (such as "reverse sexism" or "reverse racism") may receive no response.
...so even the CoC won't help. So this is why this problem is more profound than a simple commit message. It's gonna happen again and again, until everybody gets in line, shuts up or leaves due to exhaustion.
I'm not sure how much more clear python-dev and the PSF could have been that this is true. Your complaints of "racism against whites" here haven't gone unheard, unfortunately. They reflect very badly on you. They are incredibly harmful to many python-dev members and the Python community as a whole, and they reflect very badly on all of us. The option you should take is to learn how wrong you are in this. There are very, very many resources online explaining why reverse racism isn't a thing, *even if* someone was racist against you for being white (rather than judging you on your words or actions, as I'm doing here). Nobody here is being racist against (cis, het, etc) white males, even though we want to be *less* racist (and sexist, ablist, etc.) against others. We want to be more welcoming, not less -- but not to people who make the community less welcoming. If you can't accept this, please leave the community.
That's pretty far reaching and personal. I will skip on this one.
On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 22:28, David Mertz <mertz@gnosis.cx> wrote:
Can we simply revise the commit message to something neutral like "Removed specific reference to Strunk and White in favor of generic urge for language clarity."
That's all the change actually was; there's no need for the other debate or broad political background.
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:28 PM Rhodri James <rhodri@kynesim.co.uk> wrote:
On 29/06/2020 17:24, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread.
I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more. Since the PSF has seen fit to make a political statement (re Black Lives Matter, and I don't particularly disagree with either the statement or the choice of making it), threads like these are both inevitable and necessary. When such statements are made, it is generally a good idea to be reasonably sure that the community one is representing is broadly OK with that statement. (I speak in vague terms because you will never get 100% agreement from anyone on anything!)
The commit message that sparked this all was, quite unnecessarily, a political statement. The threads have demonstrated that it is not even vaguely universally accepted, so it being in the PEPs repository (not just a PR, it's there, public, and effectively representing you and me) is a problem. That it's still there now is pretty unacceptable in my book.
-- Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/HP2NJGIT... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
-- The dead increasingly dominate and strangle both the living and the not-yet born. Vampiric capital and undead corporate persons abuse the lives and control the thoughts of homo faber. Ideas, once born, become abortifacients against new conceptions. _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/JOPTN4NM... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/WSU2WV2V... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
-- Thomas Wouters <thomas@python.org>
Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to help me spread!
-- Giampaolo - gmpy.dev