2.x vs 3.x survey results
Is there a better place to put this than: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/python-2.x-vs-3.x-survey/ Thanks.
On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 13:10:36 -0800 Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a better place to put this than: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/python-2.x-vs-3.x-survey/
Thank you for doing this! If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results. Regards Antoine.
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 13:10:36 -0800 Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a better place to put this than: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/python-2.x-vs-3.x-survey/
Thank you for doing this!
My pleasure.
If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results.
I put it at https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey , with a link from https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 . I put it in the "CategoryImplementations" category. The text I added to https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 reads "Some people just don't want to use Python 3.x, which is their prerogative. However, they are in the minority.", where "in the minority" is a link to the survey page. Does anyone want to vet it before I tell more people where to find it?
Somewhere you need to describe the survey methodology, who was surveyed, how were they selected, etc. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 13:10:36 -0800 Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a better place to put this than: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/python-2.x-vs-3.x-survey/
Thank you for doing this!
My pleasure.
If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results.
I put it at https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey , with a link from https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 . I put it in the "CategoryImplementations" category.
The text I added to https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 reads "Some people just don't want to use Python 3.x, which is their prerogative. However, they are in the minority.", where "in the minority" is a link to the survey page.
Does anyone want to vet it before I tell more people where to find it? _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/greg%40krypto.org
I don't know much (if anything ^_^) about survey methodology. I just created a 9 question survey and tossed it at a few places that Pythonistas hang out. Does this look better? https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey Thanks. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Gregory P. Smith <greg@krypto.org> wrote:
Somewhere you need to describe the survey methodology, who was surveyed, how were they selected, etc.
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 13:10:36 -0800 Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a better place to put this than: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/python-2.x-vs-3.x-survey/
Thank you for doing this!
My pleasure.
If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results.
I put it at https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey , with a link from https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 . I put it in the "CategoryImplementations" category.
The text I added to https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 reads "Some people just don't want to use Python 3.x, which is their prerogative. However, they are in the minority.", where "in the minority" is a link to the survey page.
Does anyone want to vet it before I tell more people where to find it? _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/greg%40krypto.org
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know much (if anything ^_^) about survey methodology. I just created a 9 question survey and tossed it at a few places that Pythonistas hang out.
Specifically, your methodology was to post the link to python-list and python-dev (and whatever else I didn't see). Apart from "hacker news" - not sure if that's a specific site or you're talking generically - your current description sounds right. ChrisA
On 1/2/2014 10:01 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know much (if anything ^_^) about survey methodology. I just created a 9 question survey and tossed it at a few places that Pythonistas hang out.
Specifically, your methodology was to post the link to python-list and python-dev (and whatever else I didn't see). Apart from "hacker news" - not sure if that's a specific site or you're talking generically - your current description sounds right.
ChrisA
I added links to the actual posts to help clarify where and how it was posted. Janzert
On 2014-01-02 17:54, Dan Stromberg wrote:
I put it at https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey
It would've been nice to see some crosstabs. Pretty much any question after Q3 is incomprehensible without splitting the respondents into sub-groups first. Of the 2.49% of people who said they've never written Python 2.x, how many of those people also said they have never written Python 3.x too? (There really is 4 categories of developers being surveyed here.) Of the 22.91% of people who said Python 3.x was a mistake, how many of them also said they have never written any Python 3.x? Of the 40% of people who said they have never written Python 3.x, how many of them also said they had dependencies keeping them on Python 2.x? Etc. -- Scott Dial scott@scottdial.com
On 4 January 2014 19:21, Scott Dial <scott+python-dev@scottdial.com> wrote:
On 2014-01-02 17:54, Dan Stromberg wrote:
I put it at https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey
It would've been nice to see some crosstabs. Pretty much any question after Q3 is incomprehensible without splitting the respondents into sub-groups first.
Of the 2.49% of people who said they've never written Python 2.x, how many of those people also said they have never written Python 3.x too? (There really is 4 categories of developers being surveyed here.) Of the 22.91% of people who said Python 3.x was a mistake, how many of them also said they have never written any Python 3.x? Of the 40% of people who said they have never written Python 3.x, how many of them also said they had dependencies keeping them on Python 2.x? Etc.
-- Scott Dial scott@scottdial.com _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/luca.sbardella%40gmail.co...
Hi guys, you are my heroes but this survey is quite useless, can you include more people? I wasn't aware of it so many thousands of python users. And after that, you are well aware that Python 3 or 2 is becoming a liability, just stick with one, anyone (3) at this point. I don't want to go and learn a new language, please. Sorry for the rant
Luca Sbardella <luca.sbardella@gmail.com> writes:
you are my heroes but this survey is quite useless, can you include more people?
The survey cohort was self-selected from those who read the forums where it was posted.
I wasn't aware of it so many thousands of python users.
That statement confuses me. Were you aware of it, or not? How did you become aware of it?
And after that, you are well aware that Python 3 or 2 is becoming a liability, just stick with one, anyone (3) at this point.
The policy of the Python core developers is quite clear, and has been for many years: Python 2 is a dead end, and Python 2.7 (released 2010-07-03, 3½ years ago) is the last Python 2. Python 2.7 is the last of the Python 2 line, there will never be new Python 2 features <URL:http://python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/>, everyone should migrate to Python 3. That is already the Python core developers's published policy. So, to whom are you speaking here on the Python core developers' forum?
I don't want to go and learn a new language, please.
Great! If you already know Python, then there is very little (certainly not “a new language”) different to move from Python 2.7 to Python 3. Enjoy! -- \ “Our task must be to free ourselves from our prison by widening | `\ our circle of compassion to embrace all humanity and the whole | _o__) of nature in its beauty.” —Albert Einstein | Ben Finney
On 1/4/14 10:42 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
Luca Sbardella <luca.sbardella@gmail.com> writes:
you are my heroes but this survey is quite useless, can you include more people? The survey cohort was self-selected from those who read the forums where it was posted.
I wasn't aware of it so many thousands of python users. That statement confuses me. Were you aware of it, or not? How did you become aware of it?
And after that, you are well aware that Python 3 or 2 is becoming a liability, just stick with one, anyone (3) at this point. The policy of the Python core developers is quite clear, and has been for many years: Python 2 is a dead end, and Python 2.7 (released 2010-07-03, 3½ years ago) is the last Python 2.
Python 2.7 is the last of the Python 2 line, there will never be new Python 2 features <URL:http://python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/>, everyone should migrate to Python 3.
That is already the Python core developers's published policy. So, to whom are you speaking here on the Python core developers' forum?
I don't want to go and learn a new language, please. Great! If you already know Python, then there is very little (certainly not “a new language”) different to move from Python 2.7 to Python 3.
Enjoy!
I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references? If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference. If there is such reference available? Yeuk Hon
On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 8:20 PM, John Yeuk Hon Wong <gokoproject@gmail.com> wrote:
I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references?
If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference.
If there is such reference available?
This isn't comprehensive, but it does cover the issues I ran into while writing a backup program (of about 7,000 lines) that runs on 2.x and 3.x, unmodified: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~dstromberg/Intro-to-Python/ Specifically, I mean the "Writing code to run on Python 2.x and 3.x" document.
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong <gokoproject@gmail.com> wrote:
I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+.
Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list: http://python3porting.com/differences.html
There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references?
If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference.
If there is such reference available?
I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge on this point. //Lennart
Lennart Regebro <regebro@gmail.com> writes:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong <gokoproject@gmail.com> wrote:
If there is such reference available?
I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge on this point.
John Yeuk Hon Wong, where did you look (unsuccessfully) for this information? Where, on the Python website, did you first expect to find this information and fail to find it? -- \ “If you do not trust the source do not use this program.” | `\ —Microsoft Vista security dialogue | _o__) | Ben Finney
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro <regebro@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong <gokoproject@gmail.com> wrote:
I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+.
Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list:
http://python3porting.com/differences.html
There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references?
If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference.
If there is such reference available?
I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge on this point.
I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that. Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the current state of things, versus asking people on "Hacker News". I constantly see people claiming they are stuck on Python 2 until NumPy, SciPy, and matplotlib are ported. Many of these people state they would love to use Python 3 if it weren't for those projects. However, those projects have all been ported -- and the first two have been available for several years now. The same goes for differences documents. I think 15 of us have written such documents, most of which cross-reference the other documents. Somehow very few people seem to know about any of them.
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:23:45 -0600 Brian Curtin <brian@python.org> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro <regebro@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong <gokoproject@gmail.com> wrote:
I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+.
Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list:
http://python3porting.com/differences.html
There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references?
If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference.
If there is such reference available?
I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge on this point.
I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that. Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the current state of things, versus asking people on "Hacker News".
Perhaps there should be a porting guide as a prominent chapter in http://docs.python.org/3/ ? Regards Antoine.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> Date: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results To: python-dev@python.org On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:23:45 -0600 Brian Curtin <brian@python.org> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro <regebro@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong <gokoproject@gmail.com> wrote:
I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+.
Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list:
http://python3porting.com/differences.html
There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references?
If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference.
If there is such reference available?
I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge on this point.
I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that. Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the current state of things, versus asking people on "Hacker News".
Perhaps there should be a porting guide as a prominent chapter in http://docs.python.org/3/ ? The (incognito) Google query "porting from python 2 to 3" pops up this as the first result: http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/pyporting.html 2nd place is the wiki.python.org page; 3 & 4 are from Lennart's book. So the SEO is fine, it seems - at least in this case. Similar queries provide similar results. If anyone comes up with a resonable query that gives bad results, we can do some lightweight SEO on it by adding a few links here and there. Eli
I'm sure that the main problem is that people don't search. Surprisingly, it's often easier to complain "there is no X" than to try to search for a solution to X. On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 8:16 AM, Eli Bendersky <eliben@gmail.com> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> Date: Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results To: python-dev@python.org
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:23:45 -0600 Brian Curtin <brian@python.org> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro <regebro@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong <gokoproject@gmail.com> wrote:
I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+.
Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list:
http://python3porting.com/differences.html
There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references?
If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference.
If there is such reference available?
I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge on this point.
I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that. Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the current state of things, versus asking people on "Hacker News".
Perhaps there should be a porting guide as a prominent chapter in http://docs.python.org/3/ ?
The (incognito) Google query "porting from python 2 to 3" pops up this as the first result:
http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/pyporting.html
2nd place is the wiki.python.org page; 3 & 4 are from Lennart's book.
So the SEO is fine, it seems - at least in this case. Similar queries provide similar results. If anyone comes up with a resonable query that gives bad results, we can do some lightweight SEO on it by adding a few links here and there.
Eli
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/guido%40python.org
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
On 01/04/2014 08:20 PM, John Yeuk Hon Wong wrote:
I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+.
Here's another reference: http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/imprint_downloads/informit/promotions/python/... -- ~Ethan~
Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> writes:
If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results.
Dan, can your reporting tool produce the report in HTML format (and plots as SVG images)? That would be IMO more suitable for uploading. -- \ “Good morning, Pooh Bear”, said Eeyore gloomily. “If it is a | `\ good morning”, he said. “Which I doubt”, said he. —A. A. Milne, | _o__) _Winnie-the-Pooh_ | Ben Finney
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> writes:
If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results.
Dan, can your reporting tool produce the report in HTML format (and plots as SVG images)? That would be IMO more suitable for uploading.
I believe people with a more expensive account than I paid for, have access to an HTML version. I don't know if the graphs are jpeg's or what in that.
participants (14)
-
Antoine Pitrou -
Ben Finney -
Brian Curtin -
Chris Angelico -
Dan Stromberg -
Eli Bendersky -
Ethan Furman -
Gregory P. Smith -
Guido van Rossum -
Janzert -
John Yeuk Hon Wong -
Lennart Regebro -
Luca Sbardella -
Scott Dial