(Just to make sure you guys know; there's currently a thread in c.l.py about the new 2.0 features. Not a *single* person stood up to defend PEP 214: noone seems to like it.) Just
[Just van Rossum]
(Just to make sure you guys know; there's currently a thread in c.l.py about the new 2.0 features. Not a *single* person stood up to defend PEP 214: noone seems to like it.)
But that's not true! I defended it <wink>. Alas (or "thank God!", depending on how you look at it), I sent my "In praise of" post to the mailing list and apparently the list->news gateway dropped it on the floor. It most reminds me of the introduction of class.__private names. Except I don't think *anyone* was a fan of those besides your brother (I was neutral, but we had a long & quite fun Devil's Advocate debate anyway), and the opposition was far more strident than it's yet gotten on PEP 214. I liked __private names a lot after I used them, and, as I said in my unseen post, having used the new print gimmick several times "for real" now I don't ever want to go back. The people most opposed seem to be those who worked hard to learn about sys.__stdout__ and exactly why they need a try/finally block <0.9 wink>. Some of the Python-Dev'ers have objected too, but much more quietly -- principled objections always get lost in the noise. doubting-that-python's-future-hangs-in-the-balance-ly y'rs - tim
Tim Peters wrote:
[Just van Rossum]
(Just to make sure you guys know; there's currently a thread in c.l.py about the new 2.0 features. Not a *single* person stood up to defend PEP 214: noone seems to like it.)
But that's not true! I defended it <wink>.
Count me in on that one too... it's just great for adding a few quick debugging prints into the program. The only thing I find non-Pythonesque is that an operator is used. I would have opted for something like: print on <stream> x,y,z instead of print >> <stream> x,y,z But I really don't mind since I don't use "print" in production code for anything other than debugging anyway :-) -- Marc-Andre Lemburg ______________________________________________________________________ Business: http://www.lemburg.com/ Python Pages: http://www.lemburg.com/python/
"TP" == Tim Peters <tim_one@email.msn.com> writes:
TP> But that's not true! I defended it <wink>. Alas (or "thank TP> God!", depending on how you look at it), I sent my "In praise TP> of" post to the mailing list and apparently the list->news TP> gateway dropped it on the floor. Can other people confirm that list->news is broken? If so, then that would explain my c.l.py.a moderation problems. I know that my approved test message showed up on CNRI's internal news server because at least one list member of the c.l.py.a gateway got it, but I haven't seen it upstream of CNRI. I'll contact their admins and let them know the upstream feed could be broken. -Barry
[Barry]
Can other people confirm that list->news is broken?
I don't believe that it is (e.g., several of my c.l.py list mailings today have already shown up my ISP's news server). The post in question was mailed Thu 8/24/00 3:15 AM (EDT) Aahz (a fellow mailing-list devotee) noted on c.l.py that it had never shown up on the newsgroup, and after poking around I couldn't find it anywhere either.
... I'll contact their admins and let them know the upstream feed could be broken.
Well, you can *always* let them know that <wink>.
On Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 11:21:43AM -0400, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
Can other people confirm that list->news is broken?
No, not really. I can confirm that not all messages make it to the newsgroup: I can't find Tim's posting on PEP 214 anywhere on comp.lang.py. (and our new super-newsserver definately keeps the postings around long enough, so I should be able to see it, and I did get it through python-list!) However, I *can* find some of my python-list submissions from earlier today, so it hasn't completely gone to meet its maker, either. I can also confirm that python-dev itself seems to be missing some messages. I occasionally see messages quoted which I haven't seen myself, and I've seen others complain that they haven't seen my messages, as quoted in other mailings. Not more than a handful in the last week or two, though, and they *could* be attributed to dementia. -- Thomas Wouters <thomas@xs4all.net> Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!
"TW" == Thomas Wouters <thomas@xs4all.net> writes:
>> Can other people confirm that list->news is broken? TW> No, not really. I can confirm that not all messages make it to TW> the newsgroup: I can't find Tim's posting on PEP 214 anywhere TW> on comp.lang.py. (and our new super-newsserver definately TW> keeps the postings around long enough, so I should be able to TW> see it, and I did get it through python-list!) TW> However, I *can* find some of my python-list submissions from TW> earlier today, so it hasn't completely gone to meet its maker, TW> either. TW> I can also confirm that python-dev itself seems to be missing TW> some messages. I occasionally see messages quoted which I TW> haven't seen myself, and I've seen others complain that they TW> haven't seen my messages, as quoted in other mailings. Not TW> more than a handful in the last week or two, though, and they TW> *could* be attributed to dementia. I found Tim's message in the archives, so I'm curious whether those missing python-dev messages are also in the archives? If so, that's a good indication that Mailman is working, so the problem is upstream from there. I'm also not seeing any errors in the log files that would indicate a Mailman problem. I have seen some weird behavior from Postfix on that machine: occasionally messages to my python.org addr, which should be forwarded to my beopen.com addr just don't get forwarded. They get dropped in my spool file. I have no idea why, and the mail logs don't give a clue. I don't know if any of that is related, although I did just upgrade Postfix to the latest revision. And there are about 3k messages sitting in Postfix's queue waiting to go out though. Sigh. I really don't want to spend the next week debugging this stuff. ;/ -Barry
On Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 12:20:59PM -0400, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
I found Tim's message in the archives, so I'm curious whether those missing python-dev messages are also in the archives? If so, that's a good indication that Mailman is working, so the problem is upstream from there. I'm also not seeing any errors in the log files that would indicate a Mailman problem.
Well, I saw one message from Guido, where he was replying to someone who was replying to Mark. Guido claimed he hadn't seen that original message (Mark's), though I am certain I did see it. The recollections on missing messages on my part are much more vague, though, so it *still* could be attributed to dementia (of people, MUA's or MTA's ;) I'll keep a closer eye on it, though.
I have seen some weird behavior from Postfix on that machine: occasionally messages to my python.org addr, which should be forwarded to my beopen.com addr just don't get forwarded. They get dropped in my spool file. I have no idea why, and the mail logs don't give a clue. I don't know if any of that is related, although I did just upgrade Postfix to the latest revision. And there are about 3k messages sitting in Postfix's queue waiting to go out though.
Sendmail, baby! <duck> We're currently running postfix on a single machine (www.hal2001.org, which also does the Mailman for it) mostly because our current Sendmail setup has one huge advantage: it works. And it works fine. We just don't want to change the sendmail rules or fiddle with out mailertable-setup, but it works ! :-)
Sigh. I really don't want to spend the next week debugging this stuff. ;/
So don't. Do what any proper developer would do: proclaim there isn't enough info (there isn't, unless you can find the thread I'm talking about, above. I'll see if I can locate it for you, since I think I saved the entire thread with 'must check this' in the back of my head) and don't fix it until it happens again. I do not think this is Mailman related, though it might be python.org-mailman related (as in, the postfix or the link on that machine, or something.) -- Thomas Wouters <thomas@xs4all.net> Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!
Sigh. I really don't want to spend the next week debugging this stuff. ;/
Please don't. This happened to me before, and eventually everything came through -- sometimes with days delay. So it's just slowness. There's a new machine waiting for us at VA Linux. I'll ask Kahn again to speed up the transition. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.pythonlabs.com/~guido/)
I've just posted a long response to the whole thread in c.l.py, and added the essence (a long new section titled "More Justification by the BDFL")) of it to the PEP. See http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0214.html --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.pythonlabs.com/~guido/)
participants (6)
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bwarsaw＠beopen.com -
Guido van Rossum -
Just van Rossum -
M.-A. Lemburg -
Thomas Wouters -
Tim Peters