I read this interview in ACM's *Ubiquity* which reminded me of the Python developer community. Seems we are doing some things right. Maybe we can learn from it in cases where we aren't. http://www.acm.org/ubiquity/interviews/b_manville_1.html --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 02:31:53PM -0400, Guido van Rossum wrote:
I read this interview in ACM's *Ubiquity* which reminded me of the Python developer community. Seems we are doing some things right. Maybe we can learn from it in cases where we aren't.
He seems to be talking more about Governments (and treating companies as governments b/c the people can't or don't want to leave) and knowledge workers broadly. A better comparison would be Habitat for Humanity (and voluntary associations in general). Habitat has some fixed overhead for the organization. They get free labor from anyone that wants to contribute it and agrees with the scope of work. The amount of product they can churn out (houses) is greatly increased by private donations that can hire full-time labor and marginal supplies. Most of the voluntary labor is from the local community who want to see the area improved. Would be home owners have to contribute large amounts of time in exchange for an inexpensive house built mostly by others. It wouldn't go away if there was no funding, it would just be a local fixup club (which do exist). If there is a large group of people that think they should be building differently, they will form their own association (fork) which will take some or all of the patrons and volunteers with it. It maintains its character because the bulk of the labor and all the contributions are voluntary. If they paid everyone and sold the houses at a profit they would be a regular company. The building houses vs building code analogy is not perfect. Houses have fixed costs per deployment a portion of which is paid by the new owner. Software costs are extremely low per copy, so that wouldn't work. People get real but widely varying benefits from a copy of python (personal site v commercial product). In closing, if there is something to be learned by looking at others, specific purpose voluntary associations seem to be the better place to look than governments. -jack
On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 05:53:11PM -0400, Jack Diederich wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 02:31:53PM -0400, Guido van Rossum wrote:
I read this interview in ACM's *Ubiquity* which reminded me of the Python developer community. Seems we are doing some things right. Maybe we can learn from it in cases where we aren't.
He seems to be talking more about Governments (and treating companies as governments b/c the people can't or don't want to leave) and knowledge workers broadly.
In fact he mentions in the text that the open source community (he uses the term "open software") is a good example of this model. []s, |alo +---- -- Those who trade freedom for security lose both and deserve neither. -- http://www.laranja.org/ mailto:lalo@laranja.org pgp key: http://www.laranja.org/pessoal/pgp Eu jogo RPG! (I play RPG) http://www.eujogorpg.com.br/ GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/
On Wed, Apr 23, 2003, Jack Diederich wrote:
In closing, if there is something to be learned by looking at others, specific purpose voluntary associations seem to be the better place to look than governments.
Excellent post! Another community that I often mention along those lines is science fiction fandom. It's particularly relevant because fandom has many of the same social issues as the programming community (people who are True Believers, unbelievable amounts of politics, people with marginal social skills, and so on). -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Why is this newsgroup different from all other newsgroups?
On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 02:31:53PM -0400, Guido van Rossum wrote:
I read this interview in ACM's *Ubiquity* which reminded me of the Python developer community. Seems we are doing some things right. Maybe we can learn from it in cases where we aren't.
He seems to be talking more about Governments (and treating companies as governments b/c the people can't or don't want to leave) and knowledge workers broadly.
Well, he specifically points out that the US government is an inappropriate model, and suggests instead to use the government of ancient Athens as a model. Then he goes on to point out several properties of that community that I think match our community pretty well: (1) Shared communal values, including moral reciprocity; you get professional or personal growth in return for your contributions. I think many developers contribute and learn something from the review of their code by others. (2) Structure, a body for debate, dialogue, and decision-making. "The organization is the people." In our case: mailing lists, PEPs, SourceForge, CVS. (3) Specific practices: the right and expectation of *participation*; *consequence* or *accountability*: if you decide something, you have to do the work; *deliberation*: resist partisanship; *merit* as the basis for decisions; and *closure*: debates shouldn't go on forever and once a decision is made, everyone is supposed to get on board. I think all those things match our way of working pretty well!
A better comparison would be Habitat for Humanity (and voluntary associations in general). [...]
Maybe. I get lots of junk mail asking for contributions from HforH and frankly I've always thought of them as yet another charity: there are lots of these, and most of them are so much larger than our community that comparison is difficult. IMO these large charities in general (maybe not HforH, I don't know anything about them because on principle I never open unsolicited mail) are too much like modern-day massive governments already: they typically have a leadership who, like politicians, would do anything to keep or improve their personal position. I hope that's not true for the Python developer community. Certainly my own motivation is the fun I have here and not personal gain!!! --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
On 23 April 2003, Guido van Rossum said:
A better comparison would be Habitat for Humanity (and voluntary associations in general). [...]
Maybe. I get lots of junk mail asking for contributions from HforH and frankly I've always thought of them as yet another charity: there are lots of these, and most of them are so much larger than our community that comparison is difficult.
Don't forget, the PSF is gunning for charity status too. That's just
the most obvious way to state legally, "We are a community with shared
values, etc. etc.". I think there are a lot of parallels between open
source development and other volunteer organizations. Heck, I like to
justify the occasional weekend spent hunkered down in front of the
computer by saying I'm doing volunteer work. IMHO, hacking on Python is
the moral equivalent of helping to maintain public-access hiking
trails. (Although the latter is better exercise, it's nice not to have
to jump in the shower after a day spent hacking on Python. ;-)
Greg
--
Greg Ward
A better comparison would be Habitat for Humanity (and voluntary associations in general). [...]
On 23 April 2003, Guido van Rossum said:
Maybe. I get lots of junk mail asking for contributions from HforH and frankly I've always thought of them as yet another charity: there are lots of these, and most of them are so much larger than our community that comparison is difficult.
[Greg Ward]
Don't forget, the PSF is gunning for charity status too. That's just the most obvious way to state legally, "We are a community with shared values, etc. etc.". I think there are a lot of parallels between open source development and other volunteer organizations. Heck, I like to justify the occasional weekend spent hunkered down in front of the computer by saying I'm doing volunteer work. IMHO, hacking on Python is the moral equivalent of helping to maintain public-access hiking trails. (Although the latter is better exercise, it's nice not to have to jump in the shower after a day spent hacking on Python. ;-)
Sure (although I hope you jump in the shower anyway :). But I don't want the PSF to grow to the point where we have to send junk mail to people who haven't heard about us. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
Greg Ward wrote:
IMHO, hacking on Python is the moral equivalent of helping to maintain public-access hiking trails. (Although the latter is better exercise, it's nice not to have to jump in the shower after a day spent hacking on Python. ;-)
You must not be practising Extreme Programming properly. (Apologies for the obvious... but what an opening!) -- David Goodger
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Jack Diederich wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 02:31:53PM -0400, Guido van Rossum wrote:
I read this interview in ACM's *Ubiquity* which reminded me of the Python developer community. Seems we are doing some things right. Maybe we can learn from it in cases where we aren't.
He seems to be talking more about Governments (and treating companies as governments b/c the people can't or don't want to leave) and knowledge workers broadly. ... The building houses vs building code analogy is not perfect. ... In closing, if there is something to be learned by looking at others,
There always is... The article at Ubiquity, Jack's writings, and the appearance of ancient Greeks every here and there... I'd like to point you to http://www.dreamsongs.org/MobSoftware.html Is the resemblance in my eyes, or do we get a glimpse of a shift of paradigm approaching? Jonne
On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 09:12:05AM +0300, Jonne Itkonen wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Jack Diederich wrote:
On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 02:31:53PM -0400, Guido van Rossum wrote:
I read this interview in ACM's *Ubiquity* which reminded me of the Python developer community. Seems we are doing some things right. Maybe we can learn from it in cases where we aren't.
He seems to be talking more about Governments (and treating companies as governments b/c the people can't or don't want to leave) and knowledge workers broadly. ... The building houses vs building code analogy is not perfect. ... In closing, if there is something to be learned by looking at others,
There always is...
Before we go too far afield, does anyone know of a Wiki where this kind of thing is dicussed, or is anyone willing to host one? This is a worthwhile conversation, but is a runaway favorite for off topic thread of tomorrow. -jack
participants (8)
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Aahz -
David Goodger -
Greg Ward -
Guido van Rossum -
Jack Diederich -
Jonne Itkonen -
Lalo Martins -
Tim Peters