VC++ 2008 Express Edition now locked away?
Clicking this link http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=14597 on this Developer Guide page http://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#windows now returns a "We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found." page with search results. The first search result http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/nl/Vsexpressinstall/thread/2dc7ae6a-... suggests that one must first go to http://profile.microsoft.com which forwards to the live.com login page. Logging in with my un-expired non-developer account did not make the original link work. The mdsn page http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/ has Visual Studio / Download trial, which leads to https://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/downloads which lists 2012 and 2010 but not 2008. I suspect that an msdn account is required for most people to get 2008. A later link leads to https://www.dreamspark.com/Product/Product.aspx?productid=34# which suggests that vc++2008 express is also available to verified degree students. I don't qualify so I will not try. So it would appear that section "1.1.3.3. Windows" of "1. Getting Started" (setup.rst) needs further revision. Or perhaps we could persuade Microsoft to let us distribute it ourselves so Windows versions of 2.7 do not become increasingly unusable. -- Terry Jan Reedy
Hi, On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
Clicking this link http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=14597 on this Developer Guide page http://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#windows now returns a "We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found." page with search results.
The first search result http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/nl/Vsexpressinstall/thread/2dc7ae6a-... suggests that one must first go to http://profile.microsoft.com which forwards to the live.com login page. Logging in with my un-expired non-developer account did not make the original link work.
The mdsn page http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/ has Visual Studio / Download trial, which leads to https://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/downloads which lists 2012 and 2010 but not 2008.
I suspect that an msdn account is required for most people to get 2008.
A later link leads to https://www.dreamspark.com/Product/Product.aspx?productid=34# which suggests that vc++2008 express is also available to verified degree students. I don't qualify so I will not try.
I did try a few weeks ago, when I had to download a copy of Windows for a project. Long story short, after 30+ minutes and a number of confirmation emails I reached a point where I had a couple of new accounts on MSDN/Dreamspark, a "purchased" free copy of Windows in my e-cart, and some .exe I had to download in order to download and verify the purchased copy. That's where I gave up. Best Regards, Ezio Melotti
So it would appear that section "1.1.3.3. Windows" of "1. Getting Started" (setup.rst) needs further revision.
Or perhaps we could persuade Microsoft to let us distribute it ourselves so Windows versions of 2.7 do not become increasingly unusable.
-- Terry Jan Reedy
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:40 AM, Ezio Melotti <ezio.melotti@gmail.com> wrote:
I did try a few weeks ago, when I had to download a copy of Windows for a project. Long story short, after 30+ minutes and a number of confirmation emails I reached a point where I had a couple of new accounts on MSDN/Dreamspark, a "purchased" free copy of Windows in my e-cart, and some .exe I had to download in order to download and verify the purchased copy. That's where I gave up.
That's the point where I'd start looking at peer-to-peer downloads. These sorts of things are often available on torrent sites; once the original publisher starts making life harder, third-party sources become more attractive. ChrisA
Chris Angelico, 06.03.2013 17:30:
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:40 AM, Ezio Melotti wrote:
I did try a few weeks ago, when I had to download a copy of Windows for a project. Long story short, after 30+ minutes and a number of confirmation emails I reached a point where I had a couple of new accounts on MSDN/Dreamspark, a "purchased" free copy of Windows in my e-cart, and some .exe I had to download in order to download and verify the purchased copy. That's where I gave up.
That's the point where I'd start looking at peer-to-peer downloads. These sorts of things are often available on torrent sites; once the original publisher starts making life harder, third-party sources become more attractive.
May I express my doubts that the license allows a redistribution of the software in this form? Stefan
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> wrote:
Chris Angelico, 06.03.2013 17:30:
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:40 AM, Ezio Melotti wrote:
I did try a few weeks ago, when I had to download a copy of Windows for a project. Long story short, after 30+ minutes and a number of confirmation emails I reached a point where I had a couple of new accounts on MSDN/Dreamspark, a "purchased" free copy of Windows in my e-cart, and some .exe I had to download in order to download and verify the purchased copy. That's where I gave up.
That's the point where I'd start looking at peer-to-peer downloads. These sorts of things are often available on torrent sites; once the original publisher starts making life harder, third-party sources become more attractive.
May I express my doubts that the license allows a redistribution of the software in this form?
Someone would have to check, but in most cases, software licenses govern the use, more than the distribution. If you're allowed to download it free of charge from microsoft.com, you should be able to get hold of it in some other way and it be exactly the same. But yeah, if you want to be legal you'd have to actually read the EULA. Is there any plan for future Python versions to use a free compiler on Windows? That would eliminate this issue, but presumably would create others. ChrisA
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there any plan for future Python versions to use a free compiler on Windows? That would eliminate this issue, but presumably would create others.
No plan, although there are at times patches/issues floating around to add some level of support for MinGW (or something like it) in addition to Microsoft's compiler.
On 2013-03-06 16:55, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> wrote:
Chris Angelico, 06.03.2013 17:30:
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:40 AM, Ezio Melotti wrote:
I did try a few weeks ago, when I had to download a copy of Windows for a project. Long story short, after 30+ minutes and a number of confirmation emails I reached a point where I had a couple of new accounts on MSDN/Dreamspark, a "purchased" free copy of Windows in my e-cart, and some .exe I had to download in order to download and verify the purchased copy. That's where I gave up.
That's the point where I'd start looking at peer-to-peer downloads. These sorts of things are often available on torrent sites; once the original publisher starts making life harder, third-party sources become more attractive.
May I express my doubts that the license allows a redistribution of the software in this form?
Someone would have to check, but in most cases, software licenses govern the use, more than the distribution. If you're allowed to download it free of charge from microsoft.com, you should be able to get hold of it in some other way and it be exactly the same.
Sorry, but that's not how copyright works. The owner of the copyright on a work has to give you permission to allow you to distribute their work (modulo certain statutorily-defined exceptions that don't apply here). Just because you got the work from them free of charge doesn't mean that they have given you permission to redistribute it. If the agreements that you have with the copyright owner do not mention redistribution, you do not have permission to redistribute it. IANAL, TINLA. -- Robert Kern "I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." -- Umberto Eco
On 3/6/2013 11:55 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
Someone would have to check, but in most cases, software licenses govern the use, more than the distribution. If you're allowed to download it free of charge from microsoft.com, you should be able to get hold of it in some other way and it be exactly the same. But yeah, if you want to be legal you'd have to actually read the EULA.
As I remember, the 2008 vcexpress license specifically prohibits redistribtion even though MS gave it away for free. So we can not document other means of obtaining it. We went through the same issue with vc2005 when that was pulled from the MS site. I had the file but could not legally send it to anyone. As it is, my copy of 2008 file, which I meant to keep, seems gone (I believe the directory I had it in got corrupted). -- Terry Jan Reedy
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
On 3/6/2013 11:55 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
Someone would have to check, but in most cases, software licenses govern the use, more than the distribution. If you're allowed to download it free of charge from microsoft.com, you should be able to get hold of it in some other way and it be exactly the same. But yeah, if you want to be legal you'd have to actually read the EULA.
As I remember, the 2008 vcexpress license specifically prohibits redistribtion even though MS gave it away for free. So we can not document other means of obtaining it. We went through the same issue with vc2005 when that was pulled from the MS site. I had the file but could not legally send it to anyone. As it is, my copy of 2008 file, which I meant to keep, seems gone (I believe the directory I had it in got corrupted).
Blah. Okay, that settles that, then. Of course, everything I said above is still possible, just not something the PSF will officially condone. ChrisA
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:20 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
Clicking this link http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=14597 on this Developer Guide page http://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#windows now returns a "We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found." page with search results.
The first search result http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/nl/Vsexpressinstall/thread/2dc7ae6a-... suggests that one must first go to http://profile.microsoft.com which forwards to the live.com login page. Logging in with my un-expired non-developer account did not make the original link work.
The mdsn page http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/ has Visual Studio / Download trial, which leads to https://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/downloads which lists 2012 and 2010 but not 2008.
I suspect that an msdn account is required for most people to get 2008.
A later link leads to https://www.dreamspark.com/Product/Product.aspx?productid=34# which suggests that vc++2008 express is also available to verified degree students. I don't qualify so I will not try.
So it would appear that section "1.1.3.3. Windows" of "1. Getting Started" (setup.rst) needs further revision.
Or perhaps we could persuade Microsoft to let us distribute it ourselves so Windows versions of 2.7 do not become increasingly unusable.
The "Microsoft Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 3.5 SP1" is still available for download. It includes the command line compilers that are used with VS 2008. I have used to create extensions for Python 2.6 to 3.2. There is a later version of the SDK (for .NET 4.x) that includes the compilers from VS 2010. To use the SDK compiler, you need to do a few manual steps first. After starting a command window, you need to run a batch file to configure your environment. Choose the appropriate option from C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars64.bat or C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars32.bat Then set two environment variables: set MSSdk=1 set DISTUTILS_USE_SDK=1 After these steps, the standard python setup.py install should work. casevh
-- Terry Jan Reedy
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/casevh%40gmail.com
From: Case Van Horsen
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:20 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
Clicking this link http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=14597 on this Developer Guide page http://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#windows now returns a "We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found." page with search results.
The first search result http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/nl/Vsexpressinstall/thread/2dc 7ae6a-a0e7-436b-a1b3-3597ffac6a97 suggests that one must first go to http://profile.microsoft.com which forwards to the live.com login page. Logging in with my un-expired non-developer account did not make the original link work.
The mdsn page http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/ has Visual Studio / Download trial, which leads to https://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/downloads which lists 2012 and 2010 but not 2008.
I suspect that an msdn account is required for most people to get 2008.
A later link leads to https://www.dreamspark.com/Product/Product.aspx?productid=34# which suggests that vc++2008 express is also available to verified degree students. I don't qualify so I will not try.
So it would appear that section "1.1.3.3. Windows" of "1. Getting Started" (setup.rst) needs further revision.
Or perhaps we could persuade Microsoft to let us distribute it ourselves so Windows versions of 2.7 do not become increasingly unusable.
The "Microsoft Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 3.5 SP1" is still available for download. It includes the command line compilers that are used with VS 2008. I have used to create extensions for Python 2.6 to 3.2. There is a later version of the SDK (for .NET 4.x) that includes the compilers from VS 2010.
This is the same response that I got internally. The download link is http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3138 and you can choose to only download and install the compilers. Cheers, Steve
To use the SDK compiler, you need to do a few manual steps first.
After starting a command window, you need to run a batch file to configure your environment. Choose the appropriate option from
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars64.bat
or
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars32.bat
Then set two environment variables:
set MSSdk=1 set DISTUTILS_USE_SDK=1
After these steps, the standard python setup.py install should work.
casevh
-- Terry Jan Reedy
On 3/6/2013 12:29 PM, Steve Dower wrote:
From: Case Van Horsen
The "Microsoft Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 3.5 SP1" is still available for download. It includes the command line compilers that are used with VS 2008. I have used to create extensions for Python 2.6 to 3.2. There is a later version of the SDK (for .NET 4.x) that includes the compilers from VS 2010.
This is the same response that I got internally.
The download link is http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3138 and you can choose to only download and install the compilers.
The C++ compiler appears to the the full compiler that will build both 32 and 64 bits apps. Will downloading just the compiler(s) allow one to build Python with the project files in PCBuild or does something else need to be checked also?
To use the SDK compiler, you need to do a few manual steps first.
After starting a command window, you need to run a batch file to configure your environment. Choose the appropriate option from
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars64.bat
or
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars32.bat
Then set two environment variables:
set MSSdk=1 set DISTUTILS_USE_SDK=1
After these steps, the standard python setup.py install should work.
This may be fine for building extensions, but it appears that more instructions are needed for a novice to build python itself. Following the instruction in the developer's guide, http://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#windows I was able to download and install vc express, double click on <branch_dir>/PCBuild/pcbuild.sln to bring up the VS GUI, and use the menu to build a debug version of that branch. The new python is put in the same directory and can be run with another menu selection. Any alternate path should be that easy too. -- Terry Jan Reedy
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
On 3/6/2013 12:29 PM, Steve Dower wrote:
From: Case Van Horsen
The "Microsoft Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 3.5 SP1" is still available for download. It includes the command line compilers that are used with VS 2008. I have used to create extensions for Python 2.6 to 3.2. There is a later version of the SDK (for .NET 4.x) that includes the compilers from VS 2010.
This is the same response that I got internally.
The download link is
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3138 and you can choose to only download and install the compilers.
The C++ compiler appears to the the full compiler that will build both 32 and 64 bits apps. Will downloading just the compiler(s) allow one to build Python with the project files in PCBuild or does something else need to be checked also?
To use the SDK compiler, you need to do a few manual steps first.
After starting a command window, you need to run a batch file to configure your environment. Choose the appropriate option from
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars64.bat
or
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars32.bat
Then set two environment variables:
set MSSdk=1 set DISTUTILS_USE_SDK=1
After these steps, the standard python setup.py install should work.
This may be fine for building extensions, but it appears that more instructions are needed for a novice to build python itself.
There is a build.bat file in the PCbuild directory that will rebuild Python from a command prompt. After entering the commands listed above at a command prompt, I was able to build a debug version of Python 2.7.3 by moving to <branch_dir>\PCbuild and entering "build -d" (the -d indicates a debug build).
Following the instruction in the developer's guide, http://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#windows I was able to download and install vc express, double click on <branch_dir>/PCBuild/pcbuild.sln to bring up the VS GUI, and use the menu to build a debug version of that branch. The new python is put in the same directory and can be run with another menu selection. Any alternate path should be that easy too.
casevh
-- Terry Jan Reedy
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/casevh%40gmail.com
From: Terry Reedy On 3/6/2013 12:29 PM, Steve Dower wrote:
From: Case Van Horsen
The "Microsoft Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 3.5 SP1" is still available for download. It includes the command line compilers that are used with VS 2008. I have used to create extensions for Python 2.6 to 3.2. There is a later version of the SDK (for .NET 4.x) that includes the compilers from VS 2010.
This is the same response that I got internally.
The download link is http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3138 and you can choose to only download and install the compilers.
The C++ compiler appears to the the full compiler that will build both 32 and 64 bits apps. Will downloading just the compiler(s) allow one to build Python with the project files in PCBuild or does something else need to be checked also?
Just testing this now, but Any version of Visual Studio (Professional or higher), OR Visual Studio 2012 Express for Desktop (http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/products/visual-studio-express-for...) OR Visual C++ 2010 Express (http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/express-cpp/overview) (maybe - haven't confirmed this yet) For Python 3.3: the compilers and headers from the "Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 4" (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=8279) For earlier versions: the compilers and headers from the "Windows SDK for Windows 7 and .NET Framework 3.5" (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3138) (You can install both compilers on the same machine.) Once these compilers have been installed, VS will let you choose which one your project will use. In Project Properties there is a "Platform Toolset" list that will include all of the installed compilers. For Python 3.3, you'll want VC100, and earlier versions will want VC90. If you open an existing project (including PCBuild.sln), VS will offer to update it. If you don't update it, and you have the earlier compilers installed, it will use them. Right now, I've only tested this with 3.3, which used a different project format to earlier versions (.vcxproj, rather than .vcproj). I assume we know how to upgrade the project files without changing the platform target, but I haven't confirmed that yet.
To use the SDK compiler, you need to do a few manual steps first.
After starting a command window, you need to run a batch file to configure your environment. Choose the appropriate option from
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars64.bat
or
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars32.bat
Then set two environment variables:
set MSSdk=1 set DISTUTILS_USE_SDK=1
After these steps, the standard python setup.py install should work.
This may be fine for building extensions, but it appears that more instructions are needed for a novice to build python itself.
I'm not even sure that these variables are necessary - certainly without the compilers installed setup.py looks in the right place for them. I'll try this as well.
Following the instruction in the developer's guide, http://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#windows I was able to download and install vc express, double click on <branch_dir>/PCBuild/pcbuild.sln to bring up the VS GUI, and use the menu to build a debug version of that branch. The new python is put in the same directory and can be run with another menu selection. Any alternate path should be that easy too.
I'll admit I'm not a huge fan of the current Windows build setup, but since so few people seem to use it I understand why it hasn't changed. As for the documentation, I'd be happy to provide an update for this section once I've checked out that everything works. Cheers, Steve
-- Terry Jan Reedy
Am 07.03.13 09:53, schrieb Steve Dower:
To use the SDK compiler, you need to do a few manual steps first.
After starting a command window, you need to run a batch file to configure your environment. Choose the appropriate option from
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars64.bat
or
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\vcvars32.bat
Then set two environment variables:
set MSSdk=1 set DISTUTILS_USE_SDK=1
After these steps, the standard python setup.py install should work.
This may be fine for building extensions, but it appears that more instructions are needed for a novice to build python itself.
I'm not even sure that these variables are necessary - certainly without the compilers installed setup.py looks in the right place for them. I'll try this as well.
Setting MSSdk shouldn't be necessary, as vcvars should already have set it (unless that changed in recent SDKs). Setting DISTUTILS_USE_SDK is necessary as a protection to avoid unintionally picking up the wrong build tools. As for distutils finding them automatically: this only works for finding VS installations. It is (AFAICT) not possible to automatically locate SDK installations (other than by exhaustive search of the disk).
As for the documentation, I'd be happy to provide an update for this section once I've checked out that everything works.
I think it should explain to to invoke msbuild, in addition to explaining how to plug old compilers into new IDEs. Regards, Martin
From: Terry Reedy
Clicking this link http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=14597 on this Developer Guide page http://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#windows now returns a "We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found." page with search results.
The first search result http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/nl/Vsexpressinstall/thread/2dc7a e6a-a0e7-436b-a1b3-3597ffac6a97 suggests that one must first go to http://profile.microsoft.com which forwards to the live.com login page. Logging in with my un-expired non- developer account did not make the original link work.
The mdsn page http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/ has Visual Studio / Download trial, which leads to https://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/downloads which lists 2012 and 2010 but not 2008.
I suspect that an msdn account is required for most people to get 2008.
Worse than that, it looks like you need a subscription and then a download "helper", which will get you the web installer that then goes off and downloads it for you.
A later link leads to https://www.dreamspark.com/Product/Product.aspx?productid=34# which suggests that vc++2008 express is also available to verified degree students. I don't qualify so I will not try.
So it would appear that section "1.1.3.3. Windows" of "1. Getting Started" (setup.rst) needs further revision.
Or perhaps we could persuade Microsoft to let us distribute it ourselves so Windows versions of 2.7 do not become increasingly unusable.
I'll ask around and see what we can do. We clearly still have the download available, so it may just be a case of making the web installer publicly available again. Chances are if you have the installer then it will still work. We may also make just the compilers available in some other way. It looks like the Windows Development Kits (previously Platform SDK) don't have it, but IIRC the driver kits occasionally ship with compilers. I'll get back to the list when I get something. Cheers, Steve
participants (9)
-
"Martin v. Löwis" -
Brian Curtin -
Case Van Horsen -
Chris Angelico -
Ezio Melotti -
Robert Kern -
Stefan Behnel -
Steve Dower -
Terry Reedy