Okay, advice please. When responding to posts, should the poster to whom I am responding be listed as well as python-dev, or should my responses just go to python-dev? I see both ways occuring, and am not sure if one or the other is preferred. As a reference point, on python-list I almost never have the previous respondent's email in the CC list. ~Ethan~
On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:46:51 -0700 Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
I prefer responses to python-dev only myself; I am always a bit annoyed to get some responses in (half-)private, since that's just duplicate with me reading the list with gmane. Regards Antoine.
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 01:46:51PM -0700, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
I reply to list only, except when I want extra attention (e.g. when I direct people to comp.lang.python). My MUA has 3 reply commands - reply to the author, group reply (reply to all) and list reply (mailing lists are configured) so it's easy for me to choose which way I'm replying. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/24/2012 04:46 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
I prefer not to be CC'ed, as I am gonna read the message on the list anyway. I almost never CC the author on a list post, unless specifically asked (e.g., where the list is not open-subscription, as in a security response list). I occasionally CC a third user whom I know is subscribed, intending that as a "poke" / escalation (they might miss or defer replying to the message). Tres. - -- =================================================================== Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+XJ34ACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ4zogCeJeqS1eHMJ17FETzUkIQgkw8B hQkAoNmDcp1WLLAMSqFr9fGDXFtAjO3W =hKRe -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> writes:
IMO, the poster to whom you are responding should expect to read your response in the same forum where their message appeared. So, no need to send them another copy individually. -- \ “There is something wonderful in seeing a wrong-headed majority | `\ assailed by truth.” —John Kenneth Galbraith, 1989-07-28 | _o__) | Ben Finney
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:46 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
I don't know of any webmail implementations that provide reply-to-list, so a lot of us end up using reply-to-all. Cleaning up the headers requires at least deleting the To (which is where the author ends up), and perhaps moving the list from Cc to To (to make it pretty, I don't think a nonempty To is actually required by the RFC). Especially on a mobile device this is a PITA. So in most cases I suppose that the duplicate going to the author is just an issue of "energy conservation" on the part of the responder. Note that people who are really annoyed by the duplicates can set their Mailman accounts to no-dupes, and Mailman won't send the post to that person. (This has its disadvantages in principle -- no List-* headers and other list-specific info -- and in implementation -- at best Mailman can change all your lists at one site, so you need to do this on every site you subscribe to. But it's an option.) This won't work for people who read on Gmane, of course, since they don't own the subscription where they're reading the list.
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
I go the other way: hit Reply, and then replace the author's address with the list's. I'd much rather have a Reply List though. Unfortunately no decent webmail seems to have it, and I'm still looking for a decent non-web-mail client too. ChrisA
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
I used to do that, but switched to using Reply-All instead after sending too many unintentionally off-list replies. So yeah, the basic problem is mail clients that don't offer a "Reply-List" option, with the Gmail web client being a notable offender. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On Apr 25, 2012, at 01:58 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
It's a highly religious and platform-dependent thing. I'll put in a plug for Claws Mail, which I use and generally find to be excellent, in that its warts (which they all have) aren't bad enough to make me want to chuck my laptop out the window. It does both IMAP and NNTP pretty well, and can call an external editor for composition. It also rarely crashes these days. :) Oh, and to keep things roughly on topic, it embeds Python so you can write nice little scripts for a variety of actions. E.g. I have a little Python script to automatically pick my python.org address for messages to Python mailing lists. That's all I'll say on the subject in this mailing list, but I'm happy to answer other questions off-line. -Barry
On Apr 25, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Exactly. My MUA has a reply-to-list that really only works if there's a List-Post header. If you reply to one of my list messages and include me in the CC, I won't get the list copy so I won't get the List-Post header. Then my response back will include you in the CC. I generally won't clean these up, since it's *your* fault you're getting a dupe. :) If you reply-to-list and don't CC me, then the copy I get will be the list copy, which will have a List-Post header, and I'll also reply-to-list. No dupes in sight, just like this one. SJT, FTW. -Barry
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes:
I don't know of any webmail implementations that provide reply-to-list, so a lot of us end up using reply-to-all.
Right, that puts the responsibility in the right place: the webmail software vendor needs to add a reply-to-list command, as has been implemented in many clients for many years and supported explicitly by standard fields in every message header.
So in most cases I suppose that the duplicate going to the author is just an issue of "energy conservation" on the part of the responder.
I agree that's likely the usual reason. It's saving short-term effort by passing that effort on to others though, and to that extent is inconsiderate of other people. Better is for webmail users to pressure the vendor of the webmail software to add the “Reply to list” feature and make it clear this is the recommended way to reply on a mailing list.
Those of us who don't have a Mailman account don't have that option, as you noted. I'm not participating in this forum by email at all, and don't expect *any* copies of its messages in my email. The problem is with the missing feature of the webmail program, and the users of that program need to agitate for getting it fixed. Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> writes:
It doesn't even need to be extra effort for the user. The “Reply to author” command can change to a “Reply to list” command when the mailing list fields are present. That's one possible solution; but anything that gets more people to “Reply to list” when appropriate is acceptable to me. -- \ “Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you | `\ free with my breakfast cereal.” —Zaphod Beeblebrox, _The | _o__) Restaurant At The End Of The Universe_, Douglas Adams | Ben Finney
On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 13:46:51 -0700 Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
I prefer responses to python-dev only myself; I am always a bit annoyed to get some responses in (half-)private, since that's just duplicate with me reading the list with gmane. Regards Antoine.
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 01:46:51PM -0700, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
I reply to list only, except when I want extra attention (e.g. when I direct people to comp.lang.python). My MUA has 3 reply commands - reply to the author, group reply (reply to all) and list reply (mailing lists are configured) so it's easy for me to choose which way I'm replying. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman http://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/24/2012 04:46 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
I prefer not to be CC'ed, as I am gonna read the message on the list anyway. I almost never CC the author on a list post, unless specifically asked (e.g., where the list is not open-subscription, as in a security response list). I occasionally CC a third user whom I know is subscribed, intending that as a "poke" / escalation (they might miss or defer replying to the message). Tres. - -- =================================================================== Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tseaver@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design" http://palladion.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+XJ34ACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ4zogCeJeqS1eHMJ17FETzUkIQgkw8B hQkAoNmDcp1WLLAMSqFr9fGDXFtAjO3W =hKRe -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> writes:
IMO, the poster to whom you are responding should expect to read your response in the same forum where their message appeared. So, no need to send them another copy individually. -- \ “There is something wonderful in seeing a wrong-headed majority | `\ assailed by truth.” —John Kenneth Galbraith, 1989-07-28 | _o__) | Ben Finney
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:46 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
I don't know of any webmail implementations that provide reply-to-list, so a lot of us end up using reply-to-all. Cleaning up the headers requires at least deleting the To (which is where the author ends up), and perhaps moving the list from Cc to To (to make it pretty, I don't think a nonempty To is actually required by the RFC). Especially on a mobile device this is a PITA. So in most cases I suppose that the duplicate going to the author is just an issue of "energy conservation" on the part of the responder. Note that people who are really annoyed by the duplicates can set their Mailman accounts to no-dupes, and Mailman won't send the post to that person. (This has its disadvantages in principle -- no List-* headers and other list-specific info -- and in implementation -- at best Mailman can change all your lists at one site, so you need to do this on every site you subscribe to. But it's an option.) This won't work for people who read on Gmane, of course, since they don't own the subscription where they're reading the list.
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
I go the other way: hit Reply, and then replace the author's address with the list's. I'd much rather have a Reply List though. Unfortunately no decent webmail seems to have it, and I'm still looking for a decent non-web-mail client too. ChrisA
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
I used to do that, but switched to using Reply-All instead after sending too many unintentionally off-list replies. So yeah, the basic problem is mail clients that don't offer a "Reply-List" option, with the Gmail web client being a notable offender. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On Apr 25, 2012, at 01:58 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
It's a highly religious and platform-dependent thing. I'll put in a plug for Claws Mail, which I use and generally find to be excellent, in that its warts (which they all have) aren't bad enough to make me want to chuck my laptop out the window. It does both IMAP and NNTP pretty well, and can call an external editor for composition. It also rarely crashes these days. :) Oh, and to keep things roughly on topic, it embeds Python so you can write nice little scripts for a variety of actions. E.g. I have a little Python script to automatically pick my python.org address for messages to Python mailing lists. That's all I'll say on the subject in this mailing list, but I'm happy to answer other questions off-line. -Barry
On Apr 25, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Exactly. My MUA has a reply-to-list that really only works if there's a List-Post header. If you reply to one of my list messages and include me in the CC, I won't get the list copy so I won't get the List-Post header. Then my response back will include you in the CC. I generally won't clean these up, since it's *your* fault you're getting a dupe. :) If you reply-to-list and don't CC me, then the copy I get will be the list copy, which will have a List-Post header, and I'll also reply-to-list. No dupes in sight, just like this one. SJT, FTW. -Barry
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes:
I don't know of any webmail implementations that provide reply-to-list, so a lot of us end up using reply-to-all.
Right, that puts the responsibility in the right place: the webmail software vendor needs to add a reply-to-list command, as has been implemented in many clients for many years and supported explicitly by standard fields in every message header.
So in most cases I suppose that the duplicate going to the author is just an issue of "energy conservation" on the part of the responder.
I agree that's likely the usual reason. It's saving short-term effort by passing that effort on to others though, and to that extent is inconsiderate of other people. Better is for webmail users to pressure the vendor of the webmail software to add the “Reply to list” feature and make it clear this is the recommended way to reply on a mailing list.
Those of us who don't have a Mailman account don't have that option, as you noted. I'm not participating in this forum by email at all, and don't expect *any* copies of its messages in my email. The problem is with the missing feature of the webmail program, and the users of that program need to agitate for getting it fixed. Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> writes:
It doesn't even need to be extra effort for the user. The “Reply to author” command can change to a “Reply to list” command when the mailing list fields are present. That's one possible solution; but anything that gets more people to “Reply to list” when appropriate is acceptable to me. -- \ “Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you | `\ free with my breakfast cereal.” —Zaphod Beeblebrox, _The | _o__) Restaurant At The End Of The Universe_, Douglas Adams | Ben Finney
participants (9)
-
Antoine Pitrou -
Barry Warsaw -
Ben Finney -
Chris Angelico -
Ethan Furman -
Nick Coghlan -
Oleg Broytman -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Tres Seaver