RE: [Python-checkins] CVS: python/dist/src/PCbuild readme.txt,1.5,1.6
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Making a tiny change to figure out what I'm going to screw up by trying to use CVS under Windows at all ...
Congratulations :-) Mark.
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"MH" == Mark Hammond <mhammond@skippinet.com.au> writes:
MH> [I wishing mailing-lists would agree on how they handle MH> reply-to :-] It's fundamentally broken, but the problem is in the mail readers (MUA). There's no header (that I'm aware of) that portably tells an MUA - "Hey, for a group follow up, don't go to the original list, go to THIS one instead, but for an individual followup (i.e. reply) still address that to the original author." This is one reason why munging reply-to is evil. But in this case we've agreed that following up to python-dev is more important than preserving the ability to reply to the author. -Barry
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On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 10:07:47AM -0400, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
What about the Mail-Followup-To header? That can be helpful for some newsreaders (e.g. Mutt). Dunno how many observe it. Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Greg Stein <gstein@lyra.org>:
Eudora honors it, too. It's not an official standard, unfortunately; I was on the IETF committee where that battle was fought to a bloody draw. But it's the best you can do. -- <a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr">Eric S. Raymond</a> "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
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[Please remove python-dev from followups, I'm sure most of those folks don't care about this... -BAW] MM-Devers: on python-dev there's been some discussion about the Reply-to: munging that you can select on Mailman lists. Say you've got a python-checkins list that receives CVS log messages automatically. But you don't want discussions about the changes on python-checkins, you want them on python-dev. How can Mailman set up the headers on outgoing messages to get this behavior? It can't. So it fakes it by setting Reply-to: to the address of the discussion list. We now join our conversation already in progress...
"GS" == Greg Stein <gstein@lyra.org> writes:
GS> What about the Mail-Followup-To header? That can be helpful GS> for some newsreaders (e.g. Mutt). Dunno how many observe it. It looks like VM/Emacs doesn't (which is what I use), but I'm sure that'd be easy to add. I would be most interested to know what Outlook and NS do with it. However Mail-Followup-To: isn't in any RFC that I can find, not even 2076. It can be found in a discussion by Dan Bernstein[1], but that document specifically says that list managers should /not/ set it because this defeats the intended purpose. I agree - given Dan's recommendation. So there is clearly no header that will support the functionality we want. And all this crud has been debated ad-nauseum in several working groups, MUA forums, etc. with no agreement. I almost hesitate even bringing it up here. Few of the discussions that I've read (in a morning's worth of archive surfing) even mention the situation we're trying to address. One potential solution for Mailman might be to lie about the To: address. So in the above scenario, the message would have a To: field set to python-dev even though the message would actually be sent to the python-checkins membership. An elaboration on that would be to set Resent-To: to python-checkins. But those are all hacks, nearly as disgusting as what Mailman currently does. -Barry [1] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html
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At 12:16 PM -0400 7/1/00, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
It's non-standard, and in fact, arguably non-compliant, since any unofficial header should be in the X-headername form.
So there is clearly no header that will support the functionality we want.
This is a case where Reply-To is the correct header to set, or at least, least incorrect.
um, uh, well... I don't like it. Even if you had Sender: and List-ID set properly, it still seems wrong. For this case, I think the best setup is Reply-to, because that's waht you want: it came FROM this place, but responses go to this other place. The proper answer is setting reply-to, not attempting to rearrange the concept of "from this place". As a strong proponent of "don't use reply-to!" -- this is a case where it's the proper answer. It's not perfect by any means, since reply-to coerces someone away from replying privately, but in this situation, that's better than not doing it. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'"
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"MH" == Mark Hammond <mhammond@skippinet.com.au> writes:
MH> [I wishing mailing-lists would agree on how they handle MH> reply-to :-] It's fundamentally broken, but the problem is in the mail readers (MUA). There's no header (that I'm aware of) that portably tells an MUA - "Hey, for a group follow up, don't go to the original list, go to THIS one instead, but for an individual followup (i.e. reply) still address that to the original author." This is one reason why munging reply-to is evil. But in this case we've agreed that following up to python-dev is more important than preserving the ability to reply to the author. -Barry
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On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 10:07:47AM -0400, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
What about the Mail-Followup-To header? That can be helpful for some newsreaders (e.g. Mutt). Dunno how many observe it. Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Greg Stein <gstein@lyra.org>:
Eudora honors it, too. It's not an official standard, unfortunately; I was on the IETF committee where that battle was fought to a bloody draw. But it's the best you can do. -- <a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr">Eric S. Raymond</a> "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
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[Please remove python-dev from followups, I'm sure most of those folks don't care about this... -BAW] MM-Devers: on python-dev there's been some discussion about the Reply-to: munging that you can select on Mailman lists. Say you've got a python-checkins list that receives CVS log messages automatically. But you don't want discussions about the changes on python-checkins, you want them on python-dev. How can Mailman set up the headers on outgoing messages to get this behavior? It can't. So it fakes it by setting Reply-to: to the address of the discussion list. We now join our conversation already in progress...
"GS" == Greg Stein <gstein@lyra.org> writes:
GS> What about the Mail-Followup-To header? That can be helpful GS> for some newsreaders (e.g. Mutt). Dunno how many observe it. It looks like VM/Emacs doesn't (which is what I use), but I'm sure that'd be easy to add. I would be most interested to know what Outlook and NS do with it. However Mail-Followup-To: isn't in any RFC that I can find, not even 2076. It can be found in a discussion by Dan Bernstein[1], but that document specifically says that list managers should /not/ set it because this defeats the intended purpose. I agree - given Dan's recommendation. So there is clearly no header that will support the functionality we want. And all this crud has been debated ad-nauseum in several working groups, MUA forums, etc. with no agreement. I almost hesitate even bringing it up here. Few of the discussions that I've read (in a morning's worth of archive surfing) even mention the situation we're trying to address. One potential solution for Mailman might be to lie about the To: address. So in the above scenario, the message would have a To: field set to python-dev even though the message would actually be sent to the python-checkins membership. An elaboration on that would be to set Resent-To: to python-checkins. But those are all hacks, nearly as disgusting as what Mailman currently does. -Barry [1] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html
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At 12:16 PM -0400 7/1/00, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
It's non-standard, and in fact, arguably non-compliant, since any unofficial header should be in the X-headername form.
So there is clearly no header that will support the functionality we want.
This is a case where Reply-To is the correct header to set, or at least, least incorrect.
um, uh, well... I don't like it. Even if you had Sender: and List-ID set properly, it still seems wrong. For this case, I think the best setup is Reply-to, because that's waht you want: it came FROM this place, but responses go to this other place. The proper answer is setting reply-to, not attempting to rearrange the concept of "from this place". As a strong proponent of "don't use reply-to!" -- this is a case where it's the proper answer. It's not perfect by any means, since reply-to coerces someone away from replying privately, but in this situation, that's better than not doing it. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'"
participants (5)
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bwarsaw@beopen.com
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Chuq Von Rospach
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Eric S. Raymond
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Greg Stein
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Mark Hammond