About PEPs being discussed on Discourse
Hi, Would it be possible to announce new PEPs on python-dev please? I don't go often to Discourse, like once a month. I don't get any notification by email. I expected new PEPs to be announced on python-dev, but they are not announced here anymore. Is it possible to get Discourse notifications by email, but only for new PEPs? Using mailing lists, it's easy: just select the mailing list that you would like to subscribe to. So I went to Discourse, I click on "New Topics" and I don't see any new PEP... ... But if I go manually to the PEP category, there are 2 new PEPs proposed (PEP 678, PEP 687). In this category, if I click on the bell: it says "You will be notified if someone mentions your @name or replies to you". I can change this parameter to "You will be notified of new topics in this category but not replies to the topics." I don't recall if I changed this parameter manually, but it seems like the choice to only be notified of new topics is a new (i don't think that it existed 1 year ago). I don't recall that I opted in to not be notified of new PEPs. Now I see that Inada-san submitted the PEP 686 to the SC: https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/118 I didn't read the discussion about this PEP which interest me. I knew that it exists because I saw related issues and pull requests about this PEP, but I didn't go to the discussion because I don't have the habit of visiting Discourse. I guess that it's my fault of not going to Discourse often enough. It's sometimes hard to keep track of everything happening around Python development. The discussions are scattered between multiple communication channels: * Issues * Pull requests * python-dev * python-committers * (private) Discord * Discourse * (public) IRC #python-dev Sometimes, I already confused by the same topic being discussed in two different Discord rooms :-) It's also common that some people discuss on the issue, and other people have a parallel discussion (about the same topic) on the related pull request. There are also Language Summit (sadly, I cannot attend it this year, for the first time) and CPython core dev sprints. Sometimes, a discussion happens on Twitter, but if it becomes serious, it moves to the above communication channels, so it's fine. I'm not going to https://python.zulipchat.com/ anymore, I guess that it has been replaced with Discord. Victor -- Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
On 07. 04. 22 15:59, Victor Stinner wrote:
Hi,
Would it be possible to announce new PEPs on python-dev please?
Currently, all PEPs should be announced on python-dev, but not necessarily right after they're published. They should be announced before submitting them to SC, though.
I don't go often to Discourse, like once a month. I don't get any notification by email. I expected new PEPs to be announced on python-dev, but they are not announced here anymore. Is it possible to get Discourse notifications by email, but only for new PEPs? Using mailing lists, it's easy: just select the mailing list that you would like to subscribe to.
Hm, but is not possible to subcsribe only to PEP announcements here, either. Is it? :)
So I went to Discourse, I click on "New Topics" and I don't see any new PEP...
... But if I go manually to the PEP category, there are 2 new PEPs proposed (PEP 678, PEP 687). In this category, if I click on the bell: it says "You will be notified if someone mentions your @name or replies to you". I can change this parameter to "You will be notified of new topics in this category but not replies to the topics." I don't recall if I changed this parameter manually, but it seems like the choice to only be notified of new topics is a new (i don't think that it existed 1 year ago). I don't recall that I opted in to not be notified of new PEPs.
Now I see that Inada-san submitted the PEP 686 to the SC: https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/118
I didn't read the discussion about this PEP which interest me. I knew that it exists because I saw related issues and pull requests about this PEP, but I didn't go to the discussion because I don't have the habit of visiting Discourse. I guess that it's my fault of not going to Discourse often enough.
It's sometimes hard to keep track of everything happening around Python development. The discussions are scattered between multiple communication channels:
* Issues * Pull requests * python-dev * python-committers * (private) Discord * Discourse * (public) IRC #python-dev
And for new PEPs as they're published, you can use the RSS feed at https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss :)
Sometimes, I already confused by the same topic being discussed in two different Discord rooms :-) It's also common that some people discuss on the issue, and other people have a parallel discussion (about the same topic) on the related pull request.
There are also Language Summit (sadly, I cannot attend it this year, for the first time) and CPython core dev sprints. Sometimes, a discussion happens on Twitter, but if it becomes serious, it moves to the above communication channels, so it's fine.
I'm not going to https://python.zulipchat.com/ anymore, I guess that it has been replaced with Discord.
Victor
On 4/7/22 07:31, Petr Viktorin wrote:
On 07. 04. 22 15:59, Victor Stinner wrote:
Would it be possible to announce new PEPs on python-dev please?
Currently, all PEPs should be announced on python-dev, but not necessarily right after they're published. They should be announced before submitting them to SC, though.
By the time a PEP is being submitted, the opportunity to contribute has passed. -- ~Ethan~
On 08. 04. 22 1:26, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 4/7/22 07:31, Petr Viktorin wrote:
On 07. 04. 22 15:59, Victor Stinner wrote:
Would it be possible to announce new PEPs on python-dev please?
Currently, all PEPs should be announced on python-dev, but not necessarily right after they're published. They should be announced before submitting them to SC, though.
By the time a PEP is being submitted, the opportunity to contribute has passed.
That's a goal the PEP author should work toward, by submitting a PEP after all relevant discussion took place. The SC's job is to check this, as well as it can, and ask for more discussion if needed. If you think you haven't been included in the conversation, it's never too late to make your point. Of course, the discussion can take place in a forum you don't monitor. (And that's a good thing -- as an extreme example, we probably don't want to have typing-sig or packaging discussions here.) But every PEP currently needs to be at least announced on python-dev, so everyone should at least know there is a PEP to discuss.
Le 07/04/2022 à 15:59, Victor Stinner a écrit :
Hi,
Would it be possible to announce new PEPs on python-dev please?
I don't go often to Discourse, like once a month. I don't get any notification by email. I expected new PEPs to be announced on python-dev, but they are not announced here anymore. Is it possible to get Discourse notifications by email, but only for new PEPs? Using mailing lists, it's easy: just select the mailing list that you would like to subscribe to.
So I went to Discourse, I click on "New Topics" and I don't see any new PEP...
... But if I go manually to the PEP category, there are 2 new PEPs proposed (PEP 678, PEP 687). In this category, if I click on the bell: it says "You will be notified if someone mentions your @name or replies to you". I can change this parameter to "You will be notified of new topics in this category but not replies to the topics." I don't recall if I changed this parameter manually, but it seems like the choice to only be notified of new topics is a new (i don't think that it existed 1 year ago). I don't recall that I opted in to not be notified of new PEPs.
Now I see that Inada-san submitted the PEP 686 to the SC: https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/118
I didn't read the discussion about this PEP which interest me. I knew that it exists because I saw related issues and pull requests about this PEP, but I didn't go to the discussion because I don't have the habit of visiting Discourse. I guess that it's my fault of not going to Discourse often enough.
It's sometimes hard to keep track of everything happening around Python development. The discussions are scattered between multiple communication channels:
* Issues * Pull requests * python-dev * python-committers * (private) Discord * Discourse * (public) IRC #python-dev
Sometimes, I already confused by the same topic being discussed in two different Discord rooms :-) It's also common that some people discuss on the issue, and other people have a parallel discussion (about the same topic) on the related pull request.
There are also Language Summit (sadly, I cannot attend it this year, for the first time) and CPython core dev sprints. Sometimes, a discussion happens on Twitter, but if it becomes serious, it moves to the above communication channels, so it's fine.
I'm not going to https://python.zulipchat.com/ anymore, I guess that it has been replaced with Discord.
Victor
I'm only a lurker here, but find the split between this mailing list and various Discourse categories a little confusing from the outside. As far as I understand, the Discourse server was originally an experiment. Today, it has grown far past the size of an experiment though. Are there any plans to retire either Discourse or the mailing list and use a unified communication channel? This is a curiosity question. Best, Jean
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:31 PM Jean Abou Samra <jean@abou-samra.fr> wrote:
I'm only a lurker here, but find the split between this mailing list and various Discourse categories a little confusing from the outside. As far as I understand, the Discourse server was originally an experiment. Today, it has grown far past the size of an experiment though. Are there any plans to retire either Discourse or the mailing list and use a unified communication channel? This is a curiosity question.
We feel it too. We've been finding Discourse more useful from a community moderation and thread management point of view as well as offering markdown text and code rendering. Ideal for PEP discussions. Many of us expect python-dev to wind up obsoleted by Discourse as a result. I encourage everyone to use https://discuss.python.org/ first for Dev audience communications. And for lurkers and subscribers here to enable email notifications for categories of interest over there. -gps
FWIW, I find Discourse (and everything similar that I've seen), awkward, difficult to use, poorly organized, and in every way inferior to my mail client. Obviously, other people differ in opinion. Quite likely the majority of cpython developers disagree. I don't think I'm entirely alone in this experience though. Of course it's possible that the move will happen (I'm basically a lurker here, andy preference really shouldn't be very important). On Thu, Apr 7, 2022, 8:17 PM Gregory P. Smith <greg@krypto.org> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:31 PM Jean Abou Samra <jean@abou-samra.fr> wrote:
I'm only a lurker here, but find the split between this mailing list and various Discourse categories a little confusing from the outside. As far as I understand, the Discourse server was originally an experiment. Today, it has grown far past the size of an experiment though. Are there any plans to retire either Discourse or the mailing list and use a unified communication channel? This is a curiosity question.
We feel it too. We've been finding Discourse more useful from a community moderation and thread management point of view as well as offering markdown text and code rendering. Ideal for PEP discussions. Many of us expect python-dev to wind up obsoleted by Discourse as a result. I encourage everyone to use https://discuss.python.org/ first for Dev audience communications. And for lurkers and subscribers here to enable email notifications for categories of interest over there.
-gps _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/2TPHCHVB... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 7:19 PM David Mertz, Ph.D. <david.mertz@gmail.com> wrote:
FWIW, I find Discourse (and everything similar that I've seen), awkward, difficult to use, poorly organized, and in every way inferior to my mail client.
I don't think I'm entirely alone in this experience though.
You're not -- I agree This was brought up when Discourse was first introduced (as an experiment) --and I suspect both you and I made a similar comment. But if Discourse has been adopted, I guess it's time for us curmudgeons to bite the bullet and start monitoring it -- and frankly, this list (and python-ideas) should probably be retired, or turned into an announcement-only list -- having the current split is the worst option of all. -CHB -- Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) Python Language Consulting - Teaching - Scientific Software Development - Desktop GUI and Web Development - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
Hi, Le 08/04/2022 à 03:52, David Mertz, Ph.D. a écrit :
FWIW, I find Discourse (and everything similar that I've seen), awkward, difficult to use, poorly organized, and in every way inferior to my mail client.
Another Discourse misfeature I just came across: history rewriting. I know it's by design, but, at least for casual readers, it makes it hard to know which information is new. Concrete case: the GitHub Issues transition post ( https://discuss.python.org/t/github-issues-migration-is-coming-soon/13791 ) is displayed as a "read" link in my browser for more than a month. Still, I just found out that it was edited twice in between. How am I supposed to know? Just as a data point, Baptiste
Gregory P. Smith writes:
We feel it too. We've been finding Discourse more useful from a community moderation and thread management point of view as well as offering markdown text and code rendering. Ideal for PEP discussions.
The specific mention of "community moderation" and "thread management" makes me suspect that part of that effect is due to increased cost of participation for casual observers. That's not necessarily a bad thing (except for us dilettantes :-), but please make sure that there's some convenient way for affected non-core communities (PyPy, SciPy, Django, random PyPI package owners, and Victor ;-) to stay abreast of proposed changes that (a) may affect them or (b) they may have relevant expertise in the matter they could contribute. Suggestion for PEP monitoring: AIUI the PEP process at a high level view is fairly well monitored by a certain set of GitHub commits: the proto-PEP "PEP-9999" commit, the commit that assigns it a PEP number, and commits that change status. How about a GitHub bot that does nothing but post PEP commit logs to a dedicated Discourse channel? It should be possible to remove typo fixes and the like by posting any that change title, number, or status, and from the rest exclude any commits that change less than a dozen lines or something like that. Or perhaps PEP committers could be asked to include some kind of tag like "#trivial" to distinguish them. Steve
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 7:33 PM Stephen J. Turnbull < stephenjturnbull@gmail.com> wrote:
Gregory P. Smith writes:
We feel it too. We've been finding Discourse more useful from a community moderation and thread management point of view as well as offering markdown text and code rendering. Ideal for PEP discussions.
The specific mention of "community moderation" and "thread management" makes me suspect that part of that effect is due to increased cost of participation for casual observers.
As one of the discuss.python.org admins and a former ML admin (sans python-committers), I can tell that "increased cost of participation for casual observers" is not at all the motivation behind Greg's comment (you can look at the user of the Users category to see that the barrier of entry isn't there). Discourse it just flat-out easier to admin: individuals can flag posts, automatic spam detection, site-wide admins instead of per-list, ability to split topics, ability to lock topics, ability to "slow down" topics, time-limited suspensions, etc. I quit being an admin for any ML beyond python-committers because I found it too frustrating to deal w/ when compared to the tools I have on discuss.python.org. Suggestion for PEP monitoring:
AIUI the PEP process at a high level view is fairly well monitored by a certain set of GitHub commits: the proto-PEP "PEP-9999" commit, the commit that assigns it a PEP number, and commits that change status. How about a GitHub bot that does nothing but post PEP commit logs to a dedicated Discourse channel? It should be possible to remove typo fixes and the like by posting any that change title, number, or status, and from the rest exclude any commits that change less than a dozen lines or something like that. Or perhaps PEP committers could be asked to include some kind of tag like "#trivial" to distinguish them.
It's a possibility if someone wants to put the work in.
Discourse it just flat-out easier to admin: individuals can flag posts, automatic spam detection, site-wide admins instead of per-list, ability to split topics, ability to lock topics, ability to "slow down" topics, time-limited suspensions, etc. I quit being an admin for any ML beyond python-committers because I found it too frustrating to deal w/ when compared to the tools I have on discuss.python.org.
Personally, I never found administering mailing lists to be all that challenging. Also, I think it's worth taking into consideration what works best for users, not just admins. There are far more interactions with discussion media by users than administrators. My personal preference as a user is for mailing lists (everything is funneled through the same user interface rather than several not-quite-identical forum and social media interfaces - I do more than just Python stuff online, and suspect many other people do). Still, I understand that I am a dinosaur and the world is changing, so I shouldn't be surprised that a meteor is approaching. Skip
Brett Cannon writes:
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 7:33 PM Stephen J. Turnbull < stephenjturnbull@gmail.com> wrote:
The specific mention of "community moderation" and "thread management" makes me suspect that part of that effect is due to increased cost of participation for casual observers.
As one of the discuss.python.org admins and a former ML admin (sans python-committers), I can tell that "increased cost of participation for casual observers" is not at all the motivation behind Greg's comment
I worded that post very carefully, and deny any statement about channel admins' motivation was intended or present in it. My point is entirely that the Law of Unintended Effects is valid, and may be operating here. Steve
On 8/04/22 12:13 pm, Gregory P. Smith wrote:
And for lurkers and subscribers here to enable email notifications for categories of interest over there.
Is it possible to participate in a Discourse discussion entirely by email, without having to visit the web site? If not, then if python-dev becomes discourse-only, I will no longer be able to follow or participate in it. I don't have the time or energy to chase around visiting a bunch of clunky web interfaces every day. -- Greg
On Apr 8, 2022, 6:49 AM -0500, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>, wrote:
On 8/04/22 12:13 pm, Gregory P. Smith wrote:
And for lurkers and subscribers here to enable email notifications for categories of interest over there.
Is it possible to participate in a Discourse discussion entirely by email, without having to visit the web site?
It should be possible to fully interact with Discourse from an email client, Mozilla has some nice guidance on this: https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/how-do-i-use-discourse-via-email/15279
If not, then if python-dev becomes discourse-only, I will no longer be able to follow or participate in it. I don't have the time or energy to chase around visiting a bunch of clunky web interfaces every day.
-- Greg _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/ANKS4G2Q... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On 08. 04. 22 13:40, Greg Ewing wrote:
On 8/04/22 12:13 pm, Gregory P. Smith wrote:
And for lurkers and subscribers here to enable email notifications for categories of interest over there.
Is it possible to participate in a Discourse discussion entirely by email, without having to visit the web site?
It's possible. I follow Discourse by e-mail, in the "Mailing list mode", where Discourse sends me all comments and I filter in the e-mail client. That works rather well for me. Personally I visit the web app to reply, but it's possible to reply by e-mail. There are some issues with formatting, and some cases where Discourse thinks something is a footer and removes it, but IMO they're not huge problems.
On 4/8/22 09:34, Petr Viktorin wrote:
some cases where Discourse thinks something is a footer and removes it, but IMO they're not huge problems.
It also has some very good markdown support, so you can post nicely formatted code via email. Mailing list mode with Discourse is almost nicer than a plain email list in some ways.
Hi, Le 08/04/2022 à 15:34, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
I follow Discourse by e-mail, in the "Mailing list mode", where Discourse sends me all comments and I filter in the e-mail client. That works rather well for me.
If this is so, is there a possibility to funnel the message stream through GMANE (or some similar list archive), for the benefit of casual readers? (And no, the Discourse web interface without logging in just doesn't cut it for casual reading. You can't read a whole thread without being interrupted by nag screens "You seem to be interested etc…". And you can't remember what you already read and what not.) Cheers, Baptiste
participants (14)
-
Baptiste Carvello -
Brett Cannon -
Christopher Barker -
David Mertz, Ph.D. -
Edwin Zimmerman -
Ethan Furman -
Greg Ewing -
Gregory P. Smith -
Jean Abou Samra -
Petr Viktorin -
Ryan Gonzalez -
Skip Montanaro -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Victor Stinner