On Apr 25, 2016 17:08, "Brett Cannon" <brett@python.org> wrote:
Good point. Hopefully that's all it was then.
Is there any particular reason we include that link in python-dev emails? We don't for any other list as far as I know. -- Zach (On a phone)
FWIW, Gmail's policies require: """ A user must be able to unsubscribe from your mailing list through one of the following means: * A prominent link in the body of an email leading users to a page confirming his or her unsubscription (no input from the user, other than confirmation, should be required). * By replying to your email with an unsubscribe request. """ (https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126) That link is currently the only obvious way to unsubscribe. On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Zachary Ware <zachary.ware+pydev@gmail.com> wrote:
On 25 April 2016 at 23:55, Franklin? Lee <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not sure why gmail's policies should apply to this list. I'm not against having an easy reminder of how to unsubscribe, but the clickable link on every message that requests that the poster be unsubscribed seems like the wrong way to do it, to me... Paul
On Apr 26, 2016 4:02 AM, "Paul Moore" <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 25 April 2016 at 23:55, Franklin? Lee <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com>
wrote:
They're Gmail's policies on how not to get your messages filtered by Gmail as spam. I am not clear on whether they're descriptive (i.e. users will mark you as spam) or prescriptive (i.e. Google's algorithms will determine that you're spam).
On Apr 26, 2016 07:45, "Franklin? Lee" <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 26, 2016 4:02 AM, "Paul Moore" <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 25 April 2016 at 23:55, Franklin? Lee <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com>
wrote:
I have no trouble with Gmail with several other Python lists that do not include an unsubscribe link. -- Zach (On a phone)
On 26 April 2016 at 22:57, Zachary Ware <zachary.ware+pydev@gmail.com> wrote:
Indeed, Mailman inserts the appropriate List-Unsubscribe headers, so there's no need for a link in the body of the emails (and including it can cause problems when link scrapers hit the archives, or link pre-fetching in a webmail client misbehaves) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 08:45:20AM -0400, Franklin? Lee wrote:
I don't think it's just Google. If I remember correctly, having a clearly visible and *working* unsubscribe link in the body of the email (not merely hidden away in the headers where non-technical users would never think to look) is a requirement for the CanSpam act, or whatever it was called. In any case, whether it is a legal or practical requirement or not, it's a fairly small burden. As I see it, the only time it causes a (tiny) issue is if somebody accidently includes the footer from a list mail they received when forwarding to somebody else (or sending to the list), and the receiver mistakenly (or in an attempt to cause trouble) clicks on that link. Which is harmless. Considering how many hundreds, thousands (hundreds of thousands? sometimes it feels like that *wink*) of emails go through this list alone, I don't think this is a problem that needs fixing. -- Steve
On Apr 26, 2016, at 09:02 AM, Paul Moore wrote:
And yet, we have it anyway! This list turns on full personalization so the footers will all have a link to your unsubscribe page. As Ben pointed out, we also implement RFC 2369, which is only an 18 year old standard. Cheers, -Barry
"Franklin? Lee" <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com> writes:
GMail already has all the information needed to offer mailing list functionality to every user. The header of every message delivered via the mailing list has full RFC 2369 fields <URL:https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2369> which is ample information, correctly structured for any application to provide the functions GMail is referring to. GMail support staff have known this for many years because RFC 2369 support has been requested for their interface over and over again. There are reports they even make some use of that standard information <URL:http://www.itworld.com/article/2693280/unified-communications/gmail-s--unsub...> though as I never use GMail I can't verify that. If not, then their refusal to follow a mature, well-implemented internet standard is no reason for anyone else to change behaviour. It is up to GMail to use the standard information. -- \ “Anything that we scientists can do to weaken the hold of | `\ religion should be done and may in the end be our greatest | _o__) contribution to civilization.” —Steven Weinberg | Ben Finney
FWIW, Gmail's policies require: """ A user must be able to unsubscribe from your mailing list through one of the following means: * A prominent link in the body of an email leading users to a page confirming his or her unsubscription (no input from the user, other than confirmation, should be required). * By replying to your email with an unsubscribe request. """ (https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126) That link is currently the only obvious way to unsubscribe. On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Zachary Ware <zachary.ware+pydev@gmail.com> wrote:
On 25 April 2016 at 23:55, Franklin? Lee <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not sure why gmail's policies should apply to this list. I'm not against having an easy reminder of how to unsubscribe, but the clickable link on every message that requests that the poster be unsubscribed seems like the wrong way to do it, to me... Paul
On Apr 26, 2016 4:02 AM, "Paul Moore" <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 25 April 2016 at 23:55, Franklin? Lee <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com>
wrote:
They're Gmail's policies on how not to get your messages filtered by Gmail as spam. I am not clear on whether they're descriptive (i.e. users will mark you as spam) or prescriptive (i.e. Google's algorithms will determine that you're spam).
On Apr 26, 2016 07:45, "Franklin? Lee" <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 26, 2016 4:02 AM, "Paul Moore" <p.f.moore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 25 April 2016 at 23:55, Franklin? Lee <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com>
wrote:
I have no trouble with Gmail with several other Python lists that do not include an unsubscribe link. -- Zach (On a phone)
On 26 April 2016 at 22:57, Zachary Ware <zachary.ware+pydev@gmail.com> wrote:
Indeed, Mailman inserts the appropriate List-Unsubscribe headers, so there's no need for a link in the body of the emails (and including it can cause problems when link scrapers hit the archives, or link pre-fetching in a webmail client misbehaves) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 08:45:20AM -0400, Franklin? Lee wrote:
I don't think it's just Google. If I remember correctly, having a clearly visible and *working* unsubscribe link in the body of the email (not merely hidden away in the headers where non-technical users would never think to look) is a requirement for the CanSpam act, or whatever it was called. In any case, whether it is a legal or practical requirement or not, it's a fairly small burden. As I see it, the only time it causes a (tiny) issue is if somebody accidently includes the footer from a list mail they received when forwarding to somebody else (or sending to the list), and the receiver mistakenly (or in an attempt to cause trouble) clicks on that link. Which is harmless. Considering how many hundreds, thousands (hundreds of thousands? sometimes it feels like that *wink*) of emails go through this list alone, I don't think this is a problem that needs fixing. -- Steve
On Apr 26, 2016, at 09:02 AM, Paul Moore wrote:
And yet, we have it anyway! This list turns on full personalization so the footers will all have a link to your unsubscribe page. As Ben pointed out, we also implement RFC 2369, which is only an 18 year old standard. Cheers, -Barry
"Franklin? Lee" <leewangzhong+python@gmail.com> writes:
GMail already has all the information needed to offer mailing list functionality to every user. The header of every message delivered via the mailing list has full RFC 2369 fields <URL:https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2369> which is ample information, correctly structured for any application to provide the functions GMail is referring to. GMail support staff have known this for many years because RFC 2369 support has been requested for their interface over and over again. There are reports they even make some use of that standard information <URL:http://www.itworld.com/article/2693280/unified-communications/gmail-s--unsub...> though as I never use GMail I can't verify that. If not, then their refusal to follow a mature, well-implemented internet standard is no reason for anyone else to change behaviour. It is up to GMail to use the standard information. -- \ “Anything that we scientists can do to weaken the hold of | `\ religion should be done and may in the end be our greatest | _o__) contribution to civilization.” —Steven Weinberg | Ben Finney
participants (7)
-
Barry Warsaw -
Ben Finney -
Franklin? Lee -
Nick Coghlan -
Paul Moore -
Steven D'Aprano -
Zachary Ware