Summary of Python tracker Issues
ACTIVITY SUMMARY (2021-07-30 - 2021-08-06) Python tracker at https://bugs.python.org/ To view or respond to any of the issues listed below, click on the issue. Do NOT respond to this message. Issues counts and deltas: open 7397 ( +2) closed 49189 (+68) total 56586 (+70) Open issues with patches: 2933 Issues opened (48) ================== #34013: Inconsistent SyntaxError for print https://bugs.python.org/issue34013 reopened by brandtbucher #43853: [sqlite3] Improve sqlite3_value_text() error handling https://bugs.python.org/issue43853 reopened by serhiy.storchaka #44206: Add a version number to dict keys. https://bugs.python.org/issue44206 reopened by pablogsal #44524: __name__ attribute in typing module https://bugs.python.org/issue44524 reopened by kj #44698: Undefined behaviour in Objects/complexobject.c's complex_pow https://bugs.python.org/issue44698 reopened by mark.dickinson #44756: In ./Doc, "make html" and "make build" should depend on "make https://bugs.python.org/issue44756 reopened by ned.deily #44786: test_check_c_globals "crashed" and then "FutureWarning: Possib https://bugs.python.org/issue44786 opened by iritkatriel #44787: Missing valid directive %D in datetime.strftime() documentatio https://bugs.python.org/issue44787 opened by vpjtqwv0101 #44788: Possibility to specify port in __init__ of ftplib.FTP https://bugs.python.org/issue44788 opened by vpjtqwv0101 #44789: CPython cannot be compiled with -pedantic https://bugs.python.org/issue44789 opened by blastwave #44791: Substitution of ParamSpec in Concatenate https://bugs.python.org/issue44791 opened by serhiy.storchaka #44795: asyncio.run does not allow for graceful shutdown of main task https://bugs.python.org/issue44795 opened by andreash #44796: Add __parameters__ and __getitem__ in TypeVar and ParamSpec https://bugs.python.org/issue44796 opened by serhiy.storchaka #44799: typing.get_type_hints() raises TypeError for a variable annota https://bugs.python.org/issue44799 opened by tkomiya #44800: Code readability: rename interpreter frames to execution frame https://bugs.python.org/issue44800 opened by ncoghlan #44802: Substitution does not work after ParamSpec substitution of the https://bugs.python.org/issue44802 opened by serhiy.storchaka #44805: asyncio.StreamReader.read hangs for reused socket file descrip https://bugs.python.org/issue44805 opened by ntc2 #44807: typing.Protocol silently overrides __init__ method of delivere https://bugs.python.org/issue44807 opened by uriyyo #44809: Changelog missing removal of StrEnum etc. https://bugs.python.org/issue44809 opened by srittau #44810: nturl2path: drive definition https://bugs.python.org/issue44810 opened by NickVeld #44811: Change default signature algorithms for context in the ssl lib https://bugs.python.org/issue44811 opened by anis.gandoura #44813: generate specialization stat names list into opcode.h https://bugs.python.org/issue44813 opened by iritkatriel #44815: asyncio.gather no DeprecationWarning if task are passed https://bugs.python.org/issue44815 opened by dreamsorcerer #44816: PEP 626 does not explain the handling of constants, at all. https://bugs.python.org/issue44816 opened by brandtbucher #44817: os.path.realpath fails with WinError 161 https://bugs.python.org/issue44817 opened by Spacetown #44819: assertSequenceEqual does not use _getAssertEqualityFunc https://bugs.python.org/issue44819 opened by Rarity #44821: Instance dictionaries should be created eagerly https://bugs.python.org/issue44821 opened by Mark.Shannon #44822: [sqlite3] Do not truncate results of user functions and aggreg https://bugs.python.org/issue44822 opened by erlendaasland #44826: Specialize STORE_ATTR using PEP 659 machinery. https://bugs.python.org/issue44826 opened by Mark.Shannon #44828: Using tkinter.filedialog crashes on macOS Python 3.9.6 https://bugs.python.org/issue44828 opened by Nythepegasus #44829: zoneinfo.ZoneInfo does not check for Windows device names https://bugs.python.org/issue44829 opened by apple502j #44830: Broken Mozilla devguide link in "Dealing with Bugs" doc sectio https://bugs.python.org/issue44830 opened by mark.dickinson #44831: Inconsistency between datetime.now() and datetime.fromtimestam https://bugs.python.org/issue44831 opened by Miksus #44832: Compiler detection is not strict enough https://bugs.python.org/issue44832 opened by mathstuf #44834: contextvars.Context.run w/ coroutines gives inconsistent behav https://bugs.python.org/issue44834 opened by adriangb #44836: shutil _unpack_zipfile filename encoding issue https://bugs.python.org/issue44836 opened by yogendraksoni #44839: Convert Python exceptions to appropriate SQLite error codes https://bugs.python.org/issue44839 opened by serhiy.storchaka #44840: Nested if/else gets phantom else trace again (3.10) https://bugs.python.org/issue44840 opened by nedbat #44841: ZipInfo crashes on filemode https://bugs.python.org/issue44841 opened by G.Rakosy #44843: Add CLI flag to disable hash randomization https://bugs.python.org/issue44843 opened by FFY00 #44844: The command line of launching Edge on Linux hangs https://bugs.python.org/issue44844 opened by rayluo #44845: Allow keyword arguments in code.__new__ https://bugs.python.org/issue44845 opened by pxeger #44846: zipfile: cannot create zip file from files with non-utf8 filen https://bugs.python.org/issue44846 opened by joelpuig #44847: ABCMeta.__subclasscheck__() doesn't support duck typing. https://bugs.python.org/issue44847 opened by grahamd #44848: Upgrade macOS and Windows installers to use SQLite 3.36.0 https://bugs.python.org/issue44848 opened by erlendaasland #44850: Could operator.methodcaller be optimized using LOAD_METHOD? https://bugs.python.org/issue44850 opened by Antony.Lee #44851: Update bundled pip to 21.2.3 and setuptools to 57.4.0 https://bugs.python.org/issue44851 opened by uranusjr #44852: Add ability to wholesale silence DeprecationWarnings while run https://bugs.python.org/issue44852 opened by lukasz.langa Most recent 15 issues with no replies (15) ========================================== #44850: Could operator.methodcaller be optimized using LOAD_METHOD? https://bugs.python.org/issue44850 #44848: Upgrade macOS and Windows installers to use SQLite 3.36.0 https://bugs.python.org/issue44848 #44847: ABCMeta.__subclasscheck__() doesn't support duck typing. https://bugs.python.org/issue44847 #44846: zipfile: cannot create zip file from files with non-utf8 filen https://bugs.python.org/issue44846 #44845: Allow keyword arguments in code.__new__ https://bugs.python.org/issue44845 #44843: Add CLI flag to disable hash randomization https://bugs.python.org/issue44843 #44841: ZipInfo crashes on filemode https://bugs.python.org/issue44841 #44840: Nested if/else gets phantom else trace again (3.10) https://bugs.python.org/issue44840 #44836: shutil _unpack_zipfile filename encoding issue https://bugs.python.org/issue44836 #44834: contextvars.Context.run w/ coroutines gives inconsistent behav https://bugs.python.org/issue44834 #44832: Compiler detection is not strict enough https://bugs.python.org/issue44832 #44826: Specialize STORE_ATTR using PEP 659 machinery. https://bugs.python.org/issue44826 #44813: generate specialization stat names list into opcode.h https://bugs.python.org/issue44813 #44807: typing.Protocol silently overrides __init__ method of delivere https://bugs.python.org/issue44807 #44802: Substitution does not work after ParamSpec substitution of the https://bugs.python.org/issue44802 Most recent 15 issues waiting for review (15) ============================================= #44852: Add ability to wholesale silence DeprecationWarnings while run https://bugs.python.org/issue44852 #44851: Update bundled pip to 21.2.3 and setuptools to 57.4.0 https://bugs.python.org/issue44851 #44848: Upgrade macOS and Windows installers to use SQLite 3.36.0 https://bugs.python.org/issue44848 #44839: Convert Python exceptions to appropriate SQLite error codes https://bugs.python.org/issue44839 #44826: Specialize STORE_ATTR using PEP 659 machinery. https://bugs.python.org/issue44826 #44822: [sqlite3] Do not truncate results of user functions and aggreg https://bugs.python.org/issue44822 #44821: Instance dictionaries should be created eagerly https://bugs.python.org/issue44821 #44817: os.path.realpath fails with WinError 161 https://bugs.python.org/issue44817 #44815: asyncio.gather no DeprecationWarning if task are passed https://bugs.python.org/issue44815 #44813: generate specialization stat names list into opcode.h https://bugs.python.org/issue44813 #44811: Change default signature algorithms for context in the ssl lib https://bugs.python.org/issue44811 #44810: nturl2path: drive definition https://bugs.python.org/issue44810 #44807: typing.Protocol silently overrides __init__ method of delivere https://bugs.python.org/issue44807 #44800: Code readability: rename interpreter frames to execution frame https://bugs.python.org/issue44800 #44799: typing.get_type_hints() raises TypeError for a variable annota https://bugs.python.org/issue44799 Top 10 most discussed issues (10) ================================= #44789: CPython cannot be compiled with -pedantic https://bugs.python.org/issue44789 12 msgs #44756: In ./Doc, "make html" and "make build" should depend on "make https://bugs.python.org/issue44756 8 msgs #25782: CPython hangs on error __context__ set to the error itself https://bugs.python.org/issue25782 7 msgs #44605: functools.total_ordering doesn't work with metaclasses https://bugs.python.org/issue44605 7 msgs #44698: Undefined behaviour in Objects/complexobject.c's complex_pow https://bugs.python.org/issue44698 7 msgs #32397: textwrap output may change if you wrap a paragraph twice https://bugs.python.org/issue32397 6 msgs #44831: Inconsistency between datetime.now() and datetime.fromtimestam https://bugs.python.org/issue44831 6 msgs #43468: functools.cached_property incorrectly locks the entire descrip https://bugs.python.org/issue43468 5 msgs #44822: [sqlite3] Do not truncate results of user functions and aggreg https://bugs.python.org/issue44822 5 msgs #41946: Add concrete examples to os.path documentation https://bugs.python.org/issue41946 4 msgs Issues closed (68) ================== #18255: CPython setup.py problems https://bugs.python.org/issue18255 closed by ronaldoussoren #20703: RuntimeError caused by lazy imports in pdb https://bugs.python.org/issue20703 closed by iritkatriel #27275: KeyError thrown by optimised collections.OrderedDict.popitem() https://bugs.python.org/issue27275 closed by lukasz.langa #31426: [3.5] crash in gen_traverse(): gi_frame.ob_type=NULL, called b https://bugs.python.org/issue31426 closed by vstinner #34422: __name__ not available for classes in typing module https://bugs.python.org/issue34422 closed by kj #34782: Pdb raises exception when code is executed in a mapping that d https://bugs.python.org/issue34782 closed by iritkatriel #35183: os.path.splitext documentation needs typical example https://bugs.python.org/issue35183 closed by lukasz.langa #37880: For argparse add_argument with action='store_const', const sho https://bugs.python.org/issue37880 closed by vinay.sajip #39091: _PyErr_CreateException() must check that the result is an exce https://bugs.python.org/issue39091 closed by benjamin.peterson #39940: Micro-optimizations to PySequence_Tuple() https://bugs.python.org/issue39940 closed by iritkatriel #40928: OS X: malloc(): set default diagnostics to DEBUG_WRITE_ON_CRAS https://bugs.python.org/issue40928 closed by lukasz.langa #41117: [easy C] GC: Use local variable 'op' when invoking 'traverse' https://bugs.python.org/issue41117 closed by vstinner #41354: filecmp.cmp documentation does not match actual code https://bugs.python.org/issue41354 closed by lukasz.langa #41706: docs: operator dunder (`__add__`, et al.) invocations describe https://bugs.python.org/issue41706 closed by brett.cannon #41737: Improper NotADirectoryError when opening a file in a fake dire https://bugs.python.org/issue41737 closed by lukasz.langa #41886: PyType_Type is documented incorrectly https://bugs.python.org/issue41886 closed by ammar2 #41914: test_pdb fails https://bugs.python.org/issue41914 closed by iritkatriel #42958: filecmp.cmp(shallow=True) isn't actually shallow when only mti https://bugs.python.org/issue42958 closed by lukasz.langa #43066: Zipfile with leading slashes https://bugs.python.org/issue43066 closed by lukasz.langa #43596: change assertRaises message when wrong exception is raised https://bugs.python.org/issue43596 closed by mark.dickinson #43749: venv module does not copy the correct python exe https://bugs.python.org/issue43749 closed by vinay.sajip #43758: dict.config TimedRotatingFileHandler filename .suffix does not https://bugs.python.org/issue43758 closed by vinay.sajip #43874: argparse crashes on subparsers with no dest/metava https://bugs.python.org/issue43874 closed by terence.honles #44037: Broad performance regression from 3.10a7 to 3.10b2 with python https://bugs.python.org/issue44037 closed by ned.deily #44291: Unify logging.handlers.SysLogHandler behavior with SocketHandl https://bugs.python.org/issue44291 closed by vinay.sajip #44301: Is there a way to provide destructor for module written using https://bugs.python.org/issue44301 closed by lukasz.langa #44564: DeprecationWarning in test_enum over formatting https://bugs.python.org/issue44564 closed by lukasz.langa #44584: Deprecate thread debugging PYTHONTHREADDEBUG=1 https://bugs.python.org/issue44584 closed by vstinner #44617: Undesired Behavior on `match` using Singleton object https://bugs.python.org/issue44617 closed by brandtbucher #44667: tokenize.py emits spurious NEWLINE if file ends on a comment w https://bugs.python.org/issue44667 closed by pablogsal #44679: unittest.mock.sentinel documentation typo https://bugs.python.org/issue44679 closed by Mariatta #44725: Expose specialization stats in python https://bugs.python.org/issue44725 closed by iritkatriel #44738: io_uring as a new backend to selectors and asyncio https://bugs.python.org/issue44738 closed by terry.reedy #44749: LOAD_NAME not using PyObject_GetItem when globals() is a dict https://bugs.python.org/issue44749 closed by terry.reedy #44760: Turtle Documentation - Contents Hyperlink conflict https://bugs.python.org/issue44760 closed by lukasz.langa #44767: python -m flask run gives OSError: [WinError 10013] An attempt https://bugs.python.org/issue44767 closed by terry.reedy #44773: case_insensitive kwarg in str.replace() https://bugs.python.org/issue44773 closed by serhiy.storchaka #44776: Docs on mobile do not use monospace font for code snippets, mi https://bugs.python.org/issue44776 closed by terry.reedy #44781: test_distutils emits deprecation warning about distutils https://bugs.python.org/issue44781 closed by lukasz.langa #44782: LRU class given as example in OrderedDict docs not work on pop https://bugs.python.org/issue44782 closed by rhettinger #44784: test_importlib uses deprecated SelectableGroups interface https://bugs.python.org/issue44784 closed by jaraco #44785: test_pickle issues "DeprecationWarning: The Tix Tk.." https://bugs.python.org/issue44785 closed by lukasz.langa #44790: Recursion causes Crash https://bugs.python.org/issue44790 closed by Dennis Sweeney #44792: Improve syntax errors for invalid if expressions https://bugs.python.org/issue44792 closed by pablogsal #44793: Arguments ignored in substitution in typing.Callable https://bugs.python.org/issue44793 closed by serhiy.storchaka #44794: Merge tests for typing.Callable and collection.abc.Callable https://bugs.python.org/issue44794 closed by serhiy.storchaka #44797: test_socket should expect warnings in truncated-data tests https://bugs.python.org/issue44797 closed by iritkatriel #44798: test_enum emits a deprecation warning from test_custom_strenum https://bugs.python.org/issue44798 closed by iritkatriel #44801: Type expression is coerced to a list of parameter arguments in https://bugs.python.org/issue44801 closed by lukasz.langa #44803: change tracemalloc.BaseFilter to an abstract class https://bugs.python.org/issue44803 closed by lukasz.langa #44804: Port fix of "issue44422" to Python3.6.x https://bugs.python.org/issue44804 closed by ned.deily #44806: Subclassing Protocol get different __init__ https://bugs.python.org/issue44806 closed by lukasz.langa #44808: test_inspect fails in refleak mode https://bugs.python.org/issue44808 closed by lukasz.langa #44812: [docs] Document PyMember_{Get/Set}One in C API reference https://bugs.python.org/issue44812 closed by lukasz.langa #44814: python 3.9.6 installation installs 0 modules https://bugs.python.org/issue44814 closed by mark.dickinson #44818: '\t' (tab) support https://bugs.python.org/issue44818 closed by serhiy.storchaka #44820: subprocess hungs when processing <Null> value from mariadb https://bugs.python.org/issue44820 closed by mark.dickinson #44823: Docs fail to build - looking for the wrong interpreter (Python https://bugs.python.org/issue44823 closed by pablogsal #44824: The 3.10.0rc1 source tarballs contain the Docs/venv directory https://bugs.python.org/issue44824 closed by hroncok #44825: node.annotation is not a str in `ast`'s `class _Unparser(NodeV https://bugs.python.org/issue44825 closed by samuelmarks #44827: Incomplete 3.10.0rc1 release info https://bugs.python.org/issue44827 closed by pablogsal #44833: VideoCapture is not installing https://bugs.python.org/issue44833 closed by eric.smith #44835: What does "Python for Windows will still be Python for DOS" me https://bugs.python.org/issue44835 closed by eric.smith #44837: os.symlink arg names are bad https://bugs.python.org/issue44837 closed by krey #44838: SyntaxError: New message "expected 'else' after 'if' expressio https://bugs.python.org/issue44838 closed by pablogsal #44842: String conversion of Path removes '/' from original url https://bugs.python.org/issue44842 closed by eric.smith #44849: test_os: test_get_set_inheritable_o_path() failed on AMD64 Fre https://bugs.python.org/issue44849 closed by vstinner #44853: 3.10.0rc1 published md5 and size do not match for source archi https://bugs.python.org/issue44853 closed by pablogsal
I've done an answer on SO about why subclassing `dict` makes the subclass so much slower than `dict`. The answer is interesting: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/59912147/why-does-subclassing-in-python-... What do you think about?
No ideas? Excuse me for the up. On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 21:29, Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
I've done an answer on SO about why subclassing `dict` makes the subclass so much slower than `dict`. The answer is interesting:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/59912147/why-does-subclassing-in-python-...
What do you think about?
Has anyone raised this on bugs.python.org? That's the best way to get something like this looked at, not via a post on Stack Overflow. The SO posting didn't include a bpo link. Paul On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 07:33, Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
No ideas? Excuse me for the up.
On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 21:29, Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
I've done an answer on SO about why subclassing `dict` makes the subclass so much slower than `dict`. The answer is interesting:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/59912147/why-does-subclassing-in-python-...
What do you think about?
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/ODHRCDEP... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 08:26:47AM +0200, Marco Sulla wrote:
No ideas? Excuse me for the up.
Perhaps you can be more concrete in what you expect from this mailing list. Are you looking for upvotes on StackOverflow (or however it works there)? Or for some core dev to acknowledge that your analysis is correct? Something else? Are you suggesting the current behaviour is buggy? You will probably get more responses if you make it more obvious what sort of response you are looking for. -- Steve
On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 12:24 AM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 12:54, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
Are you looking for upvotes on StackOverflow
This is unacceptable. I pretend your immediate excuses.
? I don't understand this, what do you mean? ChrisA
SUMMARY: If you, Marco, want to get dicts subclasses made faster and you seriously think that they can be, open a proper issue on bugs.python.org., as I describe in 3 below. In any case, drop this tread, which started off wrongly. August 6, in response to the weekly post, Summary of Python tracker Issues Marco wrote this off-topic reply:
I've done an answer on SO about why subclassing `dict` makes the subclass so much slower than `dict`. The answer is interesting: [link to SO post] What do you think about?
What I thought at the time or think now: 1. Starting a new topic in a reply to something else is a beginner mistake. For one thing, such posts tend to get ignored, as this was. 2. This post has the form of spam intended to drive traffic elsewhere: a teaser giving essentially no information and a link to follow to get some. Most posts of this form are filtered out by moderators. Even when passed, such posts tend to be ignored. 3. Pydev, as well as b.p.o., are for improving Python and CPython. A post intended to help do that might look like: "Subclasses of dict are much slower that dict. <Sentence giving an example or two.> [Note that slower in itself is known and not surprising.] The reason seems to be <a few sentences of explanation>, possibly followed by the SO link> "I think dicts subclasses could be made faster by <give approach based on reasons for slowness>. 4. Such a post should probably go on b.p.o. unless you think there is a policy issue that might prevent a patch. A pydev post should address the issue. On August 12, you complained about the lack of response (for which I have given two reasons above)
No ideas? Excuse me for the up.
"up"? There is no update. A ping after just 4 days is a bit spammy. Good thing not everyone does that. In response Paul Moore asked about a b.p.o. issue, as nothing happens without one. And On 8/15/2021 10:22 AM, Marco Sulla wrote: (without quoting his previous message>
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 12:54, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
Are you looking for upvotes on StackOverflow
A perhaps snarky response to a slightly spammy pair of posts. You were clearly looking for clicks. Twice. Since you do not own the site, Why?
This is unacceptable. I pretend your immediate excuses.
As Chris implied, the second 'sentence' is not grammatical English. I can vaguely imagine a couple of things you might mean, but will not guess. But please stop what you started so badly. -- Terry Jan Reedy
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 21:30, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote: I opened the bug https://bugs.python.org/issue44921 . Anyway, this does not change the insinuation I got here.
In any case, drop this tread, which started off wrongly.
This thread will be dropped when Steven will give me the excuses for the unacceptable insinuation he wrote: --- On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 12:54, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
Are you looking for upvotes on StackOverflow
2. This post has the form of spam
I asked for help, because I didn't know __nothing__ about what Monica replied to me in the SO answer. And you say to me my post seems spam? This is __not__ the way I was accustomed to be treated by the Py Community!
"up"? There is no update. A ping after just 4 days is a bit spammy.
Ooooooh. __Four__ days is spam. IMHO this is a bit offensive! 5 days are a working week! Are you a Treant?
On 8/15/2021 10:22 AM, Marco Sulla wrote: (without quoting his previous message>
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 at 12:54, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
Are you looking for upvotes on StackOverflow
A perhaps snarky response to a slightly spammy pair of posts.
Snarky? Subtle insinuation, IMHO. And you continue to mark my post as spammy, when I simply tried to get help! This is unacceptable!
As Chris implied, the second 'sentence' is not grammatical English
Oh, this is enough. The sense of the phrase was very clear and you all have understood it. Remarking grammatical errors is a gross violation of the Netiquette. I ask __immediately__ the intervent of a moderator, even if I quite sure, since I'm mister No One and you are Terry Reed and Steven D'Aprano, that this will be against me X-D
Furthermore, I have 13k points of reputation on SO. They are also too much for me. I don't need dirty tricks to raise them. So I __pretend__ excuses from Steven, if it is a man.
On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 6:36 AM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
As Chris implied, the second 'sentence' is not grammatical English
Oh, this is enough. The sense of the phrase was very clear and you all have understood it. Remarking grammatical errors is a gross violation of the Netiquette. I ask __immediately__ the intervent of a moderator, even if I quite sure, since I'm mister No One and you are Terry Reed and Steven D'Aprano, that this will be against me X-D
One thing I've learned is that, if nobody else understands you, it's not everyone else's fault. ChrisA
It's the Netiquette, Chris. It's older than Internet. It's a gross violation of the Netiquette remarking grammatical or syntactical errors. I think that also the least advanced AI will understand what I meant. I think anyway that now the sense of my request is __very clear__. I ask the intervention of a moderator. How can I do this? Thank you in advance.
[Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com>]
It's the Netiquette, Chris. It's older than Internet. It's a gross violation of the Netiquette remarking grammatical or syntactical errors. I think that also the least advanced AI will understand what I meant.
As multiple people have said now, including me, they had no idea what you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest.
I think anyway that now the sense of my request is __very clear__. I ask the intervention of a moderator. How can I do this? Thank you in advance.
You already did, and I already replied. I don't view myself as a parent, referee, or judge here, and have never suppressed anyone for anything they said. I expect people to work out their differences among themselves, like adults. If you want to pursue this, I can only suggest bringing up a Code of Conduct complaint. You do that like so: https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/ """ If you believe that someone is violating the code of conduct, or have any other concerns, please contact a member of the Python Software Foundation Code of Conduct work group immediately. They can be reached by emailing conduct-wg@python.org """
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:33, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:ople have said now, including me, they had no idea what
you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest.
I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant. But let me do a very rude example: What if I said to Steven "I pretend immediate suck my $%#$"? Do you think you and the others will not understand the sense? :D C'Mon, you are offending my poor intelligence. As I wanted to say, I pretend from Steven his excuses for his insinuation, immediately. Is this clear now, or must I take an English course at Cambridge?
On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 7:56 AM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:33, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:ople have said now, including me, they had no idea what
you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest.
I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant. But let me do a very rude example:
What if I said to Steven "I pretend immediate <not quoted>? Do you think you and the others will not understand the sense? :D
C'Mon, you are offending my poor intelligence.
As I wanted to say, I pretend from Steven his excuses for his insinuation, immediately. Is this clear now, or must I take an English course at Cambridge?
Originally "pretend" meant "falsely lay claim to". For instance, King Fred the Seventeenth was King of Elbonia, but Joe Random told everyone that he was the King of Elbonia, and thus is considered a "pretender to the throne". The young Alice Liddell (famous because of Wonderland) mutated the word by playing "let's pretend" , in which she and others would play-act something. That's where the most common modern usage comes from; I could pretend that I'm a hungry hyaena, and behave accordingly. The construct "pretend immediate" sounds to me like something out of a programming language. But without context, there is no way for us to understand what you mean. I've no idea what sort of data your AI gets trained on, but at best, there is a massive cultural gap between you and everyone else in this conversation, because not one person has spoken up to say that your words meant anything to them. Even with this partial explanation you have given, I don't know how to interpret "[you] pretend from Steven his excuses". Are you falsely laying claim to them? No, that doesn't make sense. Are you play-acting that Steven has some excuses when he actually doesn't? That doesn't make much more sense. Is it wonky grammar and you meant to say that you "believe Steven's excuses are a pretence"? That would be a VERY awkward way of wording it, but even then, the reformulated version doesn't fit the context very well either. Please, when people don't understand you, *USE DIFFERENT WORDS*. Don't repeat the same words. Give us some sort of hope of comprehending you. (I'm pretty sure this post was a waste of my, and everyone else's, time. I hold out some shred of hope that it was not.) ChrisA
On 2021-08-15 22:50, Marco Sulla wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:33, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:ople have said now, including me, they had no idea what
you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest.
I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant. But let me do a very rude example:
What if I said to Steven "I pretend immediate suck my $%#$"? Do you think you and the others will not understand the sense? :D
C'Mon, you are offending my poor intelligence.
As I wanted to say, I pretend from Steven his excuses for his insinuation, immediately. Is this clear now, or must I take an English course at Cambridge?
I can figure it out, but I still find it very unclear and oddly phrased, and I'm a native English speaker of <cough> years. And the sentence "I pretend from Steven his excuses for his insinuation, immediately" is just as odd.
[Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com>]
I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant.
Amazingly enough, the truth value of a proposition does not increase via repetition ;-)
bool(True * 1_000_000_000) True bool(False * 1_000_000_000) False
But let me do a very rude example: What if I said to Steven "I pretend immediate suck my $%#$"? Do you think you and the others will not understand the sense? :D
Yes! But, for me, solely because of the "suck my $%#$" part. I still have NO idea what the "pretend immediate" part means to you. I see Chris spelled out, in some detail, what "pretend" means to native English speakers. None of which make sense in this context either, unless you're saying you're going to "make believe" that someone is going to "immediate suck [your] $%#$". But, in that case, what you choose to fantasize about doesn't really seem relevant either. "Pretend" just doesn't make any more sense here than, say, "hippopotamus" would.
C'Mon, you are offending my poor intelligence.
As I wanted to say, I pretend from Steven his excuses for his insinuation, immediately. Is this clear now,
Not to me, no. Although I bet the new phrasing "insinuation" gets much closer to your intent than "excuses". You think Steven was indirectly accusing you of unethical behavior (trolling for StackOverflow upvotes)?. That's not the sense I got from his original reply, but I can understand it if you did. If that's your complaint, I'll leave it to Steven to say what his intent was - and, if appropriate, to apologize for unintended offense.
or must I take an English course at Cambridge?
This isn't about advanced English usage. It's about the ordinary meanings of ordinary words in (what should be!) simple contexts. If I said to you Capisco con il pesce il nodo insolito! I doubt you'd suggest I study Italian at the University of Bologna ;-)
On Mon, 16 Aug 2021 at 03:15, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:
You think Steven was indirectly accusing you of unethical behavior (trolling for StackOverflow upvotes)?. That's not the sense I got from his original reply, but I can understand it if you did. If that's your complaint, I'll leave it to Steven to say what his intent was - and, if appropriate, to apologize for unintended offense.
Thank you.
This isn't about advanced English usage. It's about the ordinary meanings of ordinary words in (what should be!) simple contexts. If I said to you
Capisco con il pesce il nodo insolito!
I doubt you'd suggest I study Italian at the University of Bologna ;-)
I suppose the incompressible phrase, per se, could be code of the programming language Monicelli, la supercazzola: https://github.com/esseks/monicelli#declaration-1 Anyway, I suppose the phrase will be clear in the context ;-) PS: comunque rimani sempre un geniaccio PPS: @Chris: "pretend" derives from latin praetendere, pre-tendere, to tend first. Anyway, blame Google: https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=pretendere+in+inglese
I also haven't the faintest idea what might be intended by the phrase "I pretend your immediate excuses". But whatever the intention, it is clear Marco has veered off into angry ranting territory. Him taking a couple weeks away from this list would be an extremely good idea. On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 5:53 PM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:33, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:ople have said now, including me, they had no idea what
you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest.
I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant. But let me do a very rude example:
What if I said to Steven "I pretend immediate suck my $%#$"? Do you think you and the others will not understand the sense? :D
C'Mon, you are offending my poor intelligence.
As I wanted to say, I pretend from Steven his excuses for his insinuation, immediately. Is this clear now, or must I take an English course at Cambridge? _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/O3JB3FE3... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:55 PM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:33, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:ople have said now, including me, they had no idea what
you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest.
I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant. But let me do a very rude example:
Rude examples are never necessary and are not acceptable (don't forget we have kids who participate on this mailing list). I have referred the whole thread to the Conduct WG so they can settle who was out of line. Otherwise I advise everyone to mute this thread.
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 22:30, Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh, this is enough. The sense of the phrase was very clear and you all have understood it. Remarking grammatical errors is a gross violation of the Netiquette. I ask __immediately__ the intervent of a moderator, even if I quite sure, since I'm mister No One and you are Terry Reed and Steven D'Aprano, that this will be against me X-D
Ahahhaahh, call me Marco "Cassandra" Sulla. Mr. Cannon, I was sure about your response. Please ban me, it will be a pleasure to be banned by you for specious reasons. It's your specialty. I want to remember here that you banned me from the Py Forum because I said "Even a child can understand my code", and you _demanded_ my excuses. Since I found the accusation ridiculous, I've made my excuses to all children that do not understand my code. You banned me and even Steven defended me. I've been the moderator for a forum for years, and let me say, you are not a good moderator. You are hard-mannered. See Tim. He calmed me down with two posts. You all have to learn from him, as coders, moderators and human beings. That said, please ban me permanently, because I'll _never_ give you my excuses. What I said is the pure truth. PS: as a side note, I started to get downvotes from when this useless polemic started. Since, I repeat, I have more than 13k reputation on SO, and since the question had about 20 votes without dirty tricks, as Steven subtly insinuates, all of this makes me laugh. Do your worst, you all little men. As a Mister No One, I will be **PROUD** to be banned as Stephan Krah. On Mon, 16 Aug 2021 at 18:52, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:55 PM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:33, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:ople have said now, including me, they had no idea what
you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest.
I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant. But let me do a very rude example:
Rude examples are never necessary and are not acceptable (don't forget we have kids who participate on this mailing list).
I have referred the whole thread to the Conduct WG so they can settle who was out of line. Otherwise I advise everyone to mute this thread.
Your inflated sense of your own significance is unfortunate, since it appears to prohibit you from considering the possibility you might have made a rather silly mistake here, and one which is calculated to move you further away from your stated goals. Kind regards, Steve On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 9:31 PM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 22:30, Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh, this is enough. The sense of the phrase was very clear and you all have understood it. Remarking grammatical errors is a gross violation of the Netiquette. I ask __immediately__ the intervent of a moderator, even if I quite sure, since I'm mister No One and you are Terry Reed and Steven D'Aprano, that this will be against me X-D
Ahahhaahh, call me Marco "Cassandra" Sulla.
Mr. Cannon, I was sure about your response. Please ban me, it will be a pleasure to be banned by you for specious reasons. It's your specialty.
I want to remember here that you banned me from the Py Forum because I said "Even a child can understand my code", and you _demanded_ my excuses. Since I found the accusation ridiculous, I've made my excuses to all children that do not understand my code. You banned me and even Steven defended me.
I've been the moderator for a forum for years, and let me say, you are not a good moderator. You are hard-mannered. See Tim. He calmed me down with two posts. You all have to learn from him, as coders, moderators and human beings.
That said, please ban me permanently, because I'll _never_ give you my excuses. What I said is the pure truth.
PS: as a side note, I started to get downvotes from when this useless polemic started. Since, I repeat, I have more than 13k reputation on SO, and since the question had about 20 votes without dirty tricks, as Steven subtly insinuates, all of this makes me laugh. Do your worst, you all little men. As a Mister No One, I will be **PROUD** to be banned as Stephan Krah.
On Mon, 16 Aug 2021 at 18:52, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:55 PM Marco Sulla <
Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:33, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:ople have said now, including me, they had no idea what
you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest.
I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant. But let me do a very rude example:
Rude examples are never necessary and are not acceptable (don't forget we have kids who participate on this mailing list).
I have referred the whole thread to the Conduct WG so they can settle who was out of line. Otherwise I advise everyone to mute this thread.
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/BM4AQR34... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
The silly mistake you all have made is to blame my English error and not the unacceptable behaviour of Steven. The fact I was really angry with Steven was really clear, since all have replied to this. And someone declassed to "sarcasm" the insinuation of Steven. And I've done examples to make it clear it's not possible to not understand the sense of my indignation, and the words of Steven cannot be declassed (or subclassed?) to sarcasm. And I will be banned for this! Great! :D Ah, @Mr. Cannon, I remember the BDFL said in a post "There are too many cocks here". I also censored cock, but you simply reprimanded him. How much CPython code must one write to be treated humanely? Go and ban me permanently please, I'm really sick. PS: Furthermore, I repeat, you all blame Google: https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=pretendere+in+inglese On Wed, 18 Aug 2021 at 09:00, Steve Holden <steve@holdenweb.com> wrote:
Your inflated sense of your own significance is unfortunate, since it appears to prohibit you from considering the possibility you might have made a rather silly mistake here, and one which is calculated to move you further away from your stated goals.
Kind regards, Steve
On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 9:31 PM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 22:30, Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh, this is enough. The sense of the phrase was very clear and you all have understood it. Remarking grammatical errors is a gross violation of the Netiquette. I ask __immediately__ the intervent of a moderator, even if I quite sure, since I'm mister No One and you are Terry Reed and Steven D'Aprano, that this will be against me X-D
Ahahhaahh, call me Marco "Cassandra" Sulla.
Mr. Cannon, I was sure about your response. Please ban me, it will be a pleasure to be banned by you for specious reasons. It's your specialty.
I want to remember here that you banned me from the Py Forum because I said "Even a child can understand my code", and you _demanded_ my excuses. Since I found the accusation ridiculous, I've made my excuses to all children that do not understand my code. You banned me and even Steven defended me.
I've been the moderator for a forum for years, and let me say, you are not a good moderator. You are hard-mannered. See Tim. He calmed me down with two posts. You all have to learn from him, as coders, moderators and human beings.
That said, please ban me permanently, because I'll _never_ give you my excuses. What I said is the pure truth.
PS: as a side note, I started to get downvotes from when this useless polemic started. Since, I repeat, I have more than 13k reputation on SO, and since the question had about 20 votes without dirty tricks, as Steven subtly insinuates, all of this makes me laugh. Do your worst, you all little men. As a Mister No One, I will be **PROUD** to be banned as Stephan Krah.
On Mon, 16 Aug 2021 at 18:52, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:55 PM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:33, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:ople have said now, including me, they had no idea what
you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest.
I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant. But let me do a very rude example:
Rude examples are never necessary and are not acceptable (don't forget we have kids who participate on this mailing list).
I have referred the whole thread to the Conduct WG so they can settle who was out of line. Otherwise I advise everyone to mute this thread.
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/BM4AQR34... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Marco, please calm down. Your angry emails are not helping you in any way. Everyone on this list has had the experience of being misunderstood. It is part of being alive. There is much more to be gained by leaving your anger aside and working constructively towards your goal. Please, please calm down. On 8/18/21 4:45 AM, Marco Sulla wrote:
The silly mistake you all have made is to blame my English error and not the unacceptable behaviour of Steven. The fact I was really angry with Steven was really clear, since all have replied to this. And someone declassed to "sarcasm" the insinuation of Steven.
And I've done examples to make it clear it's not possible to not understand the sense of my indignation, and the words of Steven cannot be declassed (or subclassed?) to sarcasm.
And I will be banned for this! Great! :D
Ah, @Mr. Cannon, I remember the BDFL said in a post "There are too many cocks here". I also censored cock, but you simply reprimanded him. How much CPython code must one write to be treated humanely? Go and ban me permanently please, I'm really sick.
PS: Furthermore, I repeat, you all blame Google: https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=pretendere+in+inglese
On Wed, 18 Aug 2021 at 09:00, Steve Holden <steve@holdenweb.com> wrote:
Your inflated sense of your own significance is unfortunate, since it appears to prohibit you from considering the possibility you might have made a rather silly mistake here, and one which is calculated to move you further away from your stated goals.
Kind regards, Steve
On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 9:31 PM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 22:30, Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh, this is enough. The sense of the phrase was very clear and you all have understood it. Remarking grammatical errors is a gross violation of the Netiquette. I ask __immediately__ the intervent of a moderator, even if I quite sure, since I'm mister No One and you are Terry Reed and Steven D'Aprano, that this will be against me X-D Ahahhaahh, call me Marco "Cassandra" Sulla.
Mr. Cannon, I was sure about your response. Please ban me, it will be a pleasure to be banned by you for specious reasons. It's your specialty.
I want to remember here that you banned me from the Py Forum because I said "Even a child can understand my code", and you _demanded_ my excuses. Since I found the accusation ridiculous, I've made my excuses to all children that do not understand my code. You banned me and even Steven defended me.
I've been the moderator for a forum for years, and let me say, you are not a good moderator. You are hard-mannered. See Tim. He calmed me down with two posts. You all have to learn from him, as coders, moderators and human beings.
That said, please ban me permanently, because I'll _never_ give you my excuses. What I said is the pure truth.
PS: as a side note, I started to get downvotes from when this useless polemic started. Since, I repeat, I have more than 13k reputation on SO, and since the question had about 20 votes without dirty tricks, as Steven subtly insinuates, all of this makes me laugh. Do your worst, you all little men. As a Mister No One, I will be **PROUD** to be banned as Stephan Krah.
On Mon, 16 Aug 2021 at 18:52, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:55 PM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:33, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:ople have said now, including me, they had no idea what
you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest. I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant. But let me do a very rude example:
Rude examples are never necessary and are not acceptable (don't forget we have kids who participate on this mailing list).
I have referred the whole thread to the Conduct WG so they can settle who was out of line. Otherwise I advise everyone to mute this thread.
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/BM4AQR34... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
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Marco Sulla wrote:
I remember the BDFL said in a post […]
Really trying not to get involved, but for anybody still reading: Marco is seriously misquoting somebody here. The actual quote is “too many cooks”. https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/7QNWFKBL...
This is what I get for checking my email while I have pneumonia ... On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 1:25 PM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 22:30, Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh, this is enough. The sense of the phrase was very clear and you all have understood it. Remarking grammatical errors is a gross violation of the Netiquette. I ask __immediately__ the intervent of a moderator, even if I quite sure, since I'm mister No One and you are Terry Reed and Steven D'Aprano, that this will be against me X-D
Ahahhaahh, call me Marco "Cassandra" Sulla.
Mr. Cannon,
I rarely correct people about this, but it's actually *Dr.* Cannon; if you're going to insult me, please use the proper title at least.
I was sure about your response. Please ban me, it will be a pleasure to be banned by you for specious reasons. It's your specialty.
To provide transparency to everyone else, due to this now escalating to a personal attack against me I actually can't participate in any vote on the Conduct WG about how to respond to this thread. So in spite of Marco's request, sarcastic or otherwise, I actually can't participate in giving him the requested ban (if that's what occurs from this; as I said, I no longer have a say in the matter). But I also can't take such a unilateral action of a ban on my own anyway since a permanent ban is not in any one person's power to begin with. As a refresher about how it worked last time there was a permanent ban: the issue was referred to the Conduct WG, they made a recommendation to the SC, and the SC made the final decision based on that recommendation (which, once again, I will have to recuse myself from since I can no longer be trusted to be impartial). -Brett
I want to remember here that you banned me from the Py Forum because I said "Even a child can understand my code", and you _demanded_ my excuses. Since I found the accusation ridiculous, I've made my excuses to all children that do not understand my code. You banned me and even Steven defended me.
I've been the moderator for a forum for years, and let me say, you are not a good moderator. You are hard-mannered. See Tim. He calmed me down with two posts. You all have to learn from him, as coders, moderators and human beings.
That said, please ban me permanently, because I'll _never_ give you my excuses. What I said is the pure truth.
PS: as a side note, I started to get downvotes from when this useless polemic started. Since, I repeat, I have more than 13k reputation on SO, and since the question had about 20 votes without dirty tricks, as Steven subtly insinuates, all of this makes me laugh. Do your worst, you all little men. As a Mister No One, I will be **PROUD** to be banned as Stephan Krah.
On Mon, 16 Aug 2021 at 18:52, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:55 PM Marco Sulla <
Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:33, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:ople have said now, including me, they had no idea what
you meant.by "I pretend your immediate excuses". It's not a complaint that it's expressed inelegantly, but that they can't make _any_ sense of it. By my count, this is at least the second time you've declined to explain what you meant, but instead implied the person who said they couldn't understand it was being dishonest.
I repeat, even the worst AI will understand from the context what I meant. But let me do a very rude example:
Rude examples are never necessary and are not acceptable (don't forget we have kids who participate on this mailing list).
I have referred the whole thread to the Conduct WG so they can settle who was out of line. Otherwise I advise everyone to mute this thread.
On Wed, 18 Aug 2021 at 21:31, Brett Cannon <brett@python.org> wrote:
I rarely correct people about this, but it's actually Dr. Cannon; if you're going to insult me, please use the proper title at least.
Quoting Pulp Fiction, are you a woman? I think not, so Mr. Cannon is not incorrect. Also my title is Dr. Sulla, but if someone calls me Mister Sulla I do not get angry. Anyway, Mister Cannon, I said no insult to you, only the pure truth. You banned me for a quibble and you continue to ban me for quibbles. And I only wanted to be helpful. Thank you very much. Let the trolls like Steven proliferate, while banning dumb people like me. You remind me the song Le Gorille of George Brassens. A suggestion: beware of gorillas...
Anyway, Cannon, don't take it personal. I accuse the entire system, the whole CoC council. Indeed I was also fired some times ago from the python-ideas list: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/KV4K4K... The reasons? https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/VJMO4H... Because I responded to "Apparently you didn't read the post" with "Apparently you don't know Python". A bit too sarcastic, I admit, but enough to ban a person? Furthermore, I ended the post with "KISSes". This was considered a **rude** joke. From when KISS is considered rude??? Another problematic post: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/GKBF4N... Because I wanted to be respectful and I didn't know about this stupid rule here that "mister" is considered an insult X-D Another: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/X3SGPD... Because I said that first() is sexy. Sexualized language..... Every serious programmer knows that "sexy" is another way to say "syntactic sugar". Another one: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/QSMZKL... because I said "I can change my mind, I'm not a member of Daesh." Odd reference to an extremist organization. This is so ridiculous that I won't comment. I tried to defend myself by posting to conduct-wg@python.org . They never responded to me. So don't take it personal, Cannon.
Can someone please ban Marco? Temp ban would work fine. Thanks Barney On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 at 21:24, Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
Anyway, Cannon, don't take it personal. I accuse the entire system, the whole CoC council.
Indeed I was also fired some times ago from the python-ideas list:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/KV4K4K...
The reasons?
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/VJMO4H...
Because I responded to "Apparently you didn't read the post" with "Apparently you don't know Python". A bit too sarcastic, I admit, but enough to ban a person? Furthermore, I ended the post with "KISSes". This was considered a **rude** joke. From when KISS is considered rude???
Another problematic post:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/GKBF4N...
Because I wanted to be respectful and I didn't know about this stupid rule here that "mister" is considered an insult X-D
Another: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/X3SGPD...
Because I said that first() is sexy. Sexualized language..... Every serious programmer knows that "sexy" is another way to say "syntactic sugar".
Another one: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/QSMZKL... because I said "I can change my mind, I'm not a member of Daesh." Odd reference to an extremist organization. This is so ridiculous that I won't comment.
I tried to defend myself by posting to conduct-wg@python.org . They never responded to me. So don't take it personal, Cannon. _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/RUDKUEJJ... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com>]
Oh, this is enough. The sense of the phrase was very clear and you all have understood it.
Sincerely, I have no idea what "I pretend your immediate excuses." means, in or out of context.
Remarking grammatical errors is a gross violation of the Netiquette. I ask __immediately__ the intervent of a moderator,
I'm the only active moderator on this list, and I expect everyone has noticed I don't exercise those powers at all except to try to keep spam from showing up to begin with. I had no problem at all with your original post, but, as usual, _personally_ find almost no value in meta-posts (posts _about_ posts). People make them anyway, and that's OK by me. They eventually burn themselves out. I would _like_ it most if everyone dropped this thread now, unless they want to say something about the original topic (dict subclass performance). But, towards that end, I'm not going to threaten anyone with any moderation action.
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:12, Tim Peters <tim.peters@gmail.com> wrote:
[Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com>]
Oh, this is enough. The sense of the phrase was very clear and you all have understood it.
Sincerely, I have no idea what "I pretend your immediate excuses." means, in or out of context.
Remarking grammatical errors is a gross violation of the Netiquette. I ask __immediately__ the intervent of a moderator,
I'm the only active moderator on this list, and I expect everyone has noticed I don't exercise those powers at all except to try to keep spam from showing up to begin with.
I had no problem at all with your original post, but, as usual, _personally_ find almost no value in meta-posts (posts _about_ posts).
People make them anyway, and that's OK by me. They eventually burn themselves out.
I would _like_ it most if everyone dropped this thread now, unless they want to say something about the original topic (dict subclass performance). But, towards that end, I'm not going to threaten anyone with any moderation action.
Tim Peters, I had a real and deep respect for you and your work. Even if I bet you don't care, you lost my respect for you.
This is the source of this whole misunderstanding: On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 9:34 PM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python@gmail.com> wrote:
I asked for help, because I didn't know __nothing__ about what Monica replied to me in the SO answer. And you say to me my post seems spam?
[snipped]
And you continue to mark my post as spammy, when I simply tried to get help! This is unacceptable!
Marco thought this was a help-with-python list, and in this light his reaction sort of makes sense. The reality, Marco, is that this list is for discussions about python development, not for seeking help with understanding python. It is not appropriate to "ask for help" on this list, and you are not entitled to a reply within X working days, or ever. People will engage with what you write if they want to. There are plenty of help-with-python forums. Good luck.
On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 23:58, Irit Katriel <iritkatriel@googlemail.com> wrote:
The reality, Marco, is that this list is for discussions about python development, not for seeking help with understanding python. It is not appropriate to "ask for help" on this list, and you are not entitled to a reply within X working days, or ever. People will engage with what you write if they want to.
There are plenty of help-with-python forums. Good luck.
The answer, which I bet no one has read, is highly technical, and involves a deep understanding of CPython, not Python. So there is no other place where I could get help. Furthermore, I asked for help in past for more stupid reasons in the equivalent list on the forum, and I was not attacked this way. I repeat, this is __unacceptable__, and it's very sad that also you continue to grab at straws.
I make an example: what if I said to you that you want, with your response, only endear Tim? Is it for you sarcastic or a subtle insinuation?
"Pretendere" in Italian means "to demand", it's a false friend with the English "pretend". I don't know whether Marco is Italian (the false friend might also be there between Spanish or whatever other romance language he speaks and English, for all I know). From a native Italian speaker's perspective, what he meant was very clear to me, but it's also clear that an English speaker with no experience of Italian would not be expected to understand the meaning necessarily. Either way, from an outsider's perspective this whole bickering over such a small thing seems unfit for a list where adults talk about technical details. It seems to me that someone should swallow their pride and let this thread drop once and for all, it's not bringing anything useful or relevant.
On 16/08/2021 08:41, Federico Salerno wrote:
"Pretendere" in Italian means "to demand", it's a false friend with the English "pretend". I don't know whether Marco is Italian (the false friend might also be there between Spanish or whatever other romance language he speaks and English, for all I know). From a native Italian speaker's perspective, what he meant was very clear to me, but it's also clear that an English speaker with no experience of Italian would not be expected to understand the meaning necessarily.
I reached the same conclusion with the help of: https://it.wiktionary.org/wiki/pretendere#Etimologia_/_Derivazione . Pop open the translations (Traduzioine). English has diverged from the latin, as explained elsewhere on the thread. It's all easily explained by a misunderstanding of Steven's remark about upvotes (to agree with the answer provided by Monica) and subsequent frustration in being unable to make oneself understood.
Either way, from an outsider's perspective this whole bickering over such a small thing seems unfit for a list where adults talk about technical details. It seems to me that someone should swallow their pride and let this thread drop once and for all, it's not bringing anything useful or relevant.
Quite possibly. But I've offered a grown-up response in a separate post. -- Jeff Allen
On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 5:44 PM Federico Salerno <salernof11@gmail.com> wrote:
"Pretendere" in Italian means "to demand", it's a false friend with the English "pretend". I don't know whether Marco is Italian (the false friend might also be there between Spanish or whatever other romance language he speaks and English, for all I know). From a native Italian speaker's perspective, what he meant was very clear to me, but it's also clear that an English speaker with no experience of Italian would not be expected to understand the meaning necessarily.
If THAT'S what it is, why couldn't someone say so earlier??? If Marco had simply reworded it saying "I demand your immediate excuses", we would at least have understood. ChrisA
On 06/08/2021 20:29, Marco Sulla wrote:
I've done an answer on SO about why subclassing `dict` makes the subclass so much slower than `dict`. The answer is interesting: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/59912147/why-does-subclassing-in-python-...
What do you think about? I have spent a lot of time reading typeobject.c over the years I've been looking at an alternative implementation. It's quite difficult to follow, and full of tweaks for special circumstances. So I'm impressed with the understanding that "user2357112 supports Monica" brings to the subject. (Yes, I want to call them Monica too, but I don't think that's their actual name. ) I don't think I understand it better than they but here's my reading of that, informed by my reading of typeobject.c, in case it helps.
When a built-in type like dict is defined in C, pointers to its C implementation functions are hard-coded into slots in the type object. In order to make each appear as a method to Python, a descriptor is created when building the type that delegates to the slot (so sq_contains generates a descriptor __contains__ in the dictionary of the type. Conversely, if in a sub-class you define __contains__, then the type builder will insert a function pointer in the slot of the new type that arranges a call to __contains__. This will overwrite whatever was in the slot. In a C implementation, you can also define methods (by creating a PyMethodDef the tp_methods table) that become descriptors in the dictionary of the type. You would not normally define both a C function to place in the slot *and* the corresponding method via a PyMethodDef. If you do, the version from the dictionary of the type will win the slot, *unless* you mark the method definition (in its PyMethodDef) as METH_COEXIST. This exception is used in the special case of dict (and hardly anywhere else but set I think). I assume this is because some important code calls __contains__ via the descriptor, rather than via the slot (which would be quicker), and because an explicit definition is faster than a descriptor created automatically to wrap the slot. Now, when you create a sub-class, the table of slots is copied first, then the type is checked for definitions of special methods, and these are allowed to overwrite the slot, unless they are slot wrappers on the same function pointer the slot already contains. I think at this point the slot is re-written to contain a wrapper on __contains__, which has been inherited from dict.__contains__, because it isn't a *slot wrapper* on the same function. For example: >>> dict.__contains__ <method '__contains__' of 'dict' objects> >>> str.__contains__ <slot wrapper '__contains__' of 'str' objects> >>> class S(str): pass >>> S.__contains__ <slot wrapper '__contains__' of 'str' objects> >>> D.__contains__ <method '__contains__' of 'dict' objects> I think that when filling the slots of a sub-class, one could check for the METH_COEXIST flag at the point one checks to see whether the definition from look-up on the type is a PyWrapperDescr on the same pointer. One might have to know that the slot and descriptor come from the same base. I'm not suggesting this would be worthwhile. FYI, in the approach I am toying with, the slot wrapper descriptor is always created from the function definition, then the slot is filled from the available definitions by lookup. Defining __contains__ twice would be impossible or an error. I think this has the semantics required by Python, but we'll have to wait for proof.
-- Jeff Allen
My time is short, so thank you for focusing on the real subject. On Mon, 16 Aug 2021 at 11:00, Jeff Allen <ja.py@farowl.co.uk> wrote:
I have spent a lot of time reading typeobject.c over the years I've been looking at an alternative implementation. It's quite difficult to follow, and full of tweaks for special circumstances. So I'm impressed with the understanding that "user2357112 supports Monica" brings to the subject.
I was impressed too. I suppose it worked on some C Extension and discovered the behaviour herself.
When a built-in type like dict is defined in C, pointers to its C implementation functions are hard-coded into slots in the type object. In order to make each appear as a method to Python, a descriptor is created when building the type that delegates to the slot (so sq_contains generates a descriptor __contains__ in the dictionary of the type.
Conversely, if in a sub-class you define __contains__, then the type builder will insert a function pointer in the slot of the new type that arranges a call to __contains__. This will overwrite whatever was in the slot.
In a C implementation, you can also define methods (by creating a PyMethodDef the tp_methods table) that become descriptors in the dictionary of the type. You would not normally define both a C function to place in the slot *and* the corresponding method via a PyMethodDef. If you do, the version from the dictionary of the type will win the slot, *unless* you mark the method definition (in its PyMethodDef) as METH_COEXIST.
This exception is used in the special case of dict (and hardly anywhere else but set I think). I assume this is because some important code calls __contains__ via the descriptor, rather than via the slot (which would be quicker), and because an explicit definition is faster than a descriptor created automatically to wrap the slot.
Now, when you create a sub-class, the table of slots is copied first, then the type is checked for definitions of special methods, and these are allowed to overwrite the slot, unless they are slot wrappers on the same function pointer the slot already contains. I think at this point the slot is re-written to contain a wrapper on __contains__, which has been inherited from dict.__contains__, because it isn't a *slot wrapper* on the same function. For example:
dict.__contains__ <method '__contains__' of 'dict' objects> str.__contains__ <slot wrapper '__contains__' of 'str' objects>
class S(str): pass
S.__contains__ <slot wrapper '__contains__' of 'str' objects> D.__contains__ <method '__contains__' of 'dict' objects>
And is it not possible for subclasses to continue to use the optimized version, if some contract will be maintained?
participants (17)
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Barney Gale -
Brandt Bucher -
Brett Cannon -
Chris Angelico -
David Mertz, Ph.D. -
Edwin Zimmerman -
Federico Salerno -
Irit Katriel -
Jeff Allen -
Marco Sulla -
MRAB -
Paul Moore -
Python tracker -
Steve Holden -
Steven D'Aprano -
Terry Reedy -
Tim Peters