On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, David Ascher wrote:

... While I agree with Greg's reaction mostly (Gerrit was being childish, which maybe is not so unappropriate for a 14-year old =), I do think that the patches mailing list mechanism is only appropriate in the short-term. In the longer term, a database backend with automatic notification of interested parties when something 'happens' to a patch is needed. Distributed INBOX management just doesn't work (witness python-help).

Our lack of infrastructure is no excuse for Gerrit's position/attitude. As I mentioned in my response, his email came on the heels of an equally inflammatory email sent to webmaster@list.org (me). I was a bit tweaked :-) Sure: he has a point. Sure: we recognize that we could have better facilities. Yes: I didn't like his attitude (for right or wrong). Note: SourceForge has a "Patch Manager".

... I just wanted to point out that Gerrit's complaint, while poorly phrased, is real, and is likely to be felt by others in the future.

Recognized. But as you point out: there is only so much we can do. We'll get there, but I don't believe that it gives people license.

I know I've felt similar frustration sending things to the Scriptics folks and seeing patches dissapear into a black hole. I've just learned diplomacy over the years =).

I know diplomacy, too (although, I'm not as good as David :-). I gave Gerrit the benefit of the doubt [in the list.org mail] and assumed his use of "lie" was a mis-translation from Dutch to English. I said so in my response. He replied, stating that he *did* intend to use that word. Accept abuse once: things are fine; accept it twice, and you encourage continued, future behavior. We're all nice, great people: none of us want to deal with that. Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/

On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, David Ascher wrote:

maybe is not so unappropriate for a 14-year old =), I do think that the patches mailing list mechanism is only appropriate in the short-term. In the longer term, a database backend with automatic notification of interested parties when something 'happens' to a patch is needed. Distributed INBOX management just doesn't work (witness python-help).

That said, I'm not able to contribute to the development of such a database anymore than anyone else currently, so the last thing I want to do is complain about the status quo. I just wanted to point out that Gerrit's complaint, while poorly phrased, is real, and is likely to be felt by others in the future. I know I've felt similar frustration sending things to the Scriptics folks and seeing patches dissapear into a black hole. I've just learned diplomacy over the years =).

One of the four items in the software carpentry competition is an issue tracker, which might fit the bill. Depending on what value of "short-term" we're able to tolerate, and the success of the software-carpentry exercise. Maybe we can wait for the results, or is year too long? In fact, i should have an entry based on a zope-based tracker that we're starting to use here, which i believe does address some of the issues. We should have my initial version going for some trial projects on zope.org soon, so all could see - other commitments and quirks of fate prevent me from concentrating on packaging it up for, eg, python.org folks to evaluate. (My tracker only uses email for notices about activities on issues, actions are all done via the web, i seem to recall some people explicitly stating email actions are needed.) I'll put a notice where to look, when it's viewable, in case it's of interest. Ken klm@digicool.com