Greetings list, I am not some wizard Py programmer, but a learner and the threads are a shame to the Python community. When i subscribed i really expected the list to be technical but i guess i read wrong. Do they build the Python community, making folks more encouraged to contribute to CPython? The community point is a factor which allowed us to stand out across tech stack groups in our own country but if upstream the situation is unfavourable i fear it will make Python lose one of it's greatest allies. Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://www.github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ Mauritius sent from gmail client on Android, that's why the signature is so ugly. On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 09:46 Christian Heimes, wrote:

Y'all,

trigger warning: strong opinion

The Urban Dictionary defines the term "tire fire":

A horrifying mess, either literally or figuratively foul-smelling, that seems to last forever.

The term describes my current view of python-dev perfectly. It has always been a problematic and mentally draining place for, sometimes even toxic. But the recent PEP-8 discussion trumps every past incident (reference to US politics intended).

To every person still replying on the PEP-8 thread:

You are making us sick and should be ashamed of yourself!

And I don't mean 'sick' in the figurative sense. You are literally hurting people who are spending their free and personal time to develop open source software for you. I know of at least three cases among Python core developers with symptoms like sleep disorder, tremor, anxiety, and panic attacks. One core dev wrote publicly that they were forced to take psychotropic medicine to counter a panic attack after they have read just a few messages.

At one point I have even considered to retire from Python core development completely. I'm profoundly disgusted and appalled by the racist attitudes and self-importance of some people as well as an unrelated incident on BPO last week. The two reasons I'm not leaving are several core developers that I'm happy to call friends and Python communities beyond predominantly male and Western participants on the PEP-8 thread. Communities like PyLadies, PyCon Africa, PyLATAM, and PyCon APAC make me proud and happy to be a member of the Python community. I have met fantastic people at Python and OSS events in the Caribbean, India, and East Europe. I don't want to abandon people I cherish and grew fond of.

At least one other core developer has abandoned python-dev last week. Others have stopped participating and posting on python-dev years ago. I will follow their example now.

Goodbye Christian _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/LR3RWME7... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

I'm using my mailer's "ignore thread" feature and counting on the fact that the flamers will eventually exhaust themselves (most already have).

Yep, not all threads are going to be equally worthwhile for everyone to read. If a thread is going nowhere productive, the best course of action is oftentimes to ignore new messages. Also, on most high traffic public MLs, I think it's all but necessary to maintain a "kill file" to filter messages from authors that consistently don't make positive contributions to the discussions. For anyone feeling burned out that still wants to be involved in the technical discussions, I would highly recommend considering a similar approach. There are sometimes cases where an individual may not be necessarily violating the CoC (meaning there's not much that can be done from a moderation PoV) while still being generally negative and/or not worthwhile to read messages from on a regular basis. On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 6:28 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < python-dev@python.org> wrote:

I'm using my mailer's "ignore thread" feature and counting on the fact that the flamers will eventually exhaust themselves (most already have).

On 06.07.2020 8:41, Christian Heimes wrote:

...

Y'all,

trigger warning: strong opinion

The Urban Dictionary defines the term "tire fire":

A horrifying mess, either literally or figuratively foul-smelling, that seems to last forever.

The term describes my current view of python-dev perfectly. It has always been a problematic and mentally draining place for, sometimes even toxic. But the recent PEP-8 discussion trumps every past incident (reference to US politics intended).

To every person still replying on the PEP-8 thread:

You are making us sick and should be ashamed of yourself!

And I don't mean 'sick' in the figurative sense. You are literally hurting people who are spending their free and personal time to develop open source software for you. I know of at least three cases among Python core developers with symptoms like sleep disorder, tremor, anxiety, and panic attacks. One core dev wrote publicly that they were forced to take psychotropic medicine to counter a panic attack after they have read just a few messages.

At one point I have even considered to retire from Python core development completely. I'm profoundly disgusted and appalled by the racist attitudes and self-importance of some people as well as an unrelated incident on BPO last week. The two reasons I'm not leaving are several core developers that I'm happy to call friends and Python communities beyond predominantly male and Western participants on the PEP-8 thread. Communities like PyLadies, PyCon Africa, PyLATAM, and PyCon APAC make me proud and happy to be a member of the Python community. I have met fantastic people at Python and OSS events in the Caribbean, India, and East Europe. I don't want to abandon people I cherish and grew fond of.

At least one other core developer has abandoned python-dev last week. Others have stopped participating and posting on python-dev years ago. I will follow their example now.

Goodbye Christian _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/LR3RWME7... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ -- Regards, Ivan

---

Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/EE2JEIB2... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

As someone who also just subscribed to the mailing list about a month ago to be kept abreast of what is going on within the Python development community I have already stopped reading the mailing list as well. Every time I look there is rarely ever technical discussion. As a new person I know perhaps I don't have a horse in this race but in my personal opinion I think heavier moderation of the mailing list may be warranted. Conversations need to be quashed if they don't fit within the topic of the list. Perhaps python-dev@python.org needs to have messages held in a queue and only sent when they fit within the spirit of the discussion. I know that pep8 is part of the language, but as it is style related maybe it doesn't even have a place within Python-dev. In my opinion style guides are always inherently political to begin with. If political discussion is something that some readers want then maybe a mailing list about administration and community should be a separate mailing list. Then those discussions that end up here can be redirected there instead. It is my hope that we can do something about the current state of the conversations in python-dev. Whether or not you agree with the current style changes, I think we can all agree that it has created a great deal of toxicity. Those conversations have rarely ever been technically related and they especially have not been helpful. On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 9:59 AM moshin ali wrote:

The community point is a factor which allowed us to stand out across tech stack groups in our own country but if upstream the situation is unfavourable i fear it will make Python lose one of it's greatest allies.

Kind Regards,

ezikweb https://ezikweb.com/ _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/JNAFPU7V... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/