Mailman 3 Sourceforge Interface Concerns - Python-Dev

Sourceforge Interface Concerns

Andy Robinson

28 Jun 2000 28 Jun '00

7:03 a.m.

I missed all the SourceForge discussions, but ReportLab have been running all our development on SourceForge for five months and I'd like to share some concerns. First, we all use command line CVS, mostly from Windows; I just posted our setup instructions. It works fine but a bit slowly. I find the web interface totally unusable from IE5 and Netscape 4.XX, working over 64k lines or dialup lines. Once one logs in via SSL, only about one click in five ever returns a sensible page, and most just time out and give an error message. Many other people on the reportlab-users list and my team report similar problems. On the other hand, many are incredulous and say they have never had a problem. I found no complaints on the SF discussion groups, but as far as I can tell hardly anyone uses them. It seems to be better over big corporate connections. I don't think it is because I am in Europe; we never have trouble with our US ISPs. As a result of this, we have not used the wonderful looking bug tracking, to-do-list, patch manager etc. How many people here have actually created accounts for themselves on SourceForge and tried to do stuff when logged in - raise bugs and so on? Did it work for you? We ought to get a few data points before making this the way Python is managed. - Andy Robinson

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Neil Hodgson

28 Jun 28 Jun

7:23 a.m.

...

How many people here have actually created accounts for themselves on SourceForge and tried to do stuff when logged in - raise bugs and so on? Did it work for you? We ought to get a few data points before making this the way Python is managed.

Its generally quite good for me now that I've upgraded from a modem to a cable connection although there are brown-out periods. The only web browser I have any success with is Navigator 4.6 and 4.7. Both IE and Mozilla give poor results with SSL login. As far as getting other people to use the bug logger, its been a complete failure. Its much easier to email me or the mailing list. Some parts of SourceForge such as the file release upload are quite poorly designed and are too unpleasant to use on a slow connection if you have several packages for each release. Neil

Tim Peters

7:28 a.m.

[Andy Robinson]

...

... I find the web interface totally unusable from IE5 and Netscape 4.XX, working over 64k lines or dialup lines. Once one logs in via SSL, only about one click in five ever returns a sensible page, and most just time out and give an error message. Many other people on the reportlab-users list and my team report similar problems. On the other hand, many are incredulous and say they have never had a problem. I found no complaints on the SF discussion groups, but as far as I can tell hardly anyone uses them. It seems to be better over big corporate connections. I don't think it is because I am in Europe; we never have trouble with our US ISPs.

I'm in the middle: sometimes it works great, sometimes slow as molasses (IE5 via 56K modem on the other side of the country), and an error each one of two clicks. Greg Stein lives near it, and reports wonderful access via DSL.

...

As a result of this, we have not used the wonderful looking bug tracking, to-do-list, patch manager etc.

They're actually pretty feeble.

...

How many people here have actually created accounts for themselves on SourceForge and tried to do stuff when logged in - raise bugs and so on? Did it work for you? We ought to get a few data points before making this the way Python is managed.

We're not using the bug tracker, task list, news, forum or support managers. Just the CVS tree and the patch manager. There are particular reasons for using those particular two, and I doubt we'll be moving more there until SF gets better. OTOH, we're also interested in *helping* SF get better! SF is as much an Open Source project as Python, and it could become an incredible resource for the entire OS community. doesn't-mean-i-won't-gripe-too-though-ly y'rs - tim

Greg Stein

8:04 a.m.

On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:28:26AM -0400, Tim Peters wrote:

...

... We're not using the bug tracker, task list, news, forum or support managers. Just the CVS tree and the patch manager. There are particular reasons for using those particular two, and I doubt we'll be moving more there until SF gets better. OTOH, we're also interested in *helping* SF get better! SF is as much an Open Source project as Python, and it could become an incredible resource for the entire OS community.

This last statement is (unfortunately) not quite true. SourceForge is developed in a closed, cathedral environment. There is no CVS access to it, and all the developers work at VA Linux. Strictly speaking, the *output* of this closed development is GPL'd. But it isn't what you would expect. The documentation for SF is separate. Apparently, there was an independent effort to help do some documentation and they got a good ways. Then the VA guys suddenly popped out the "SFDocs" project, ignoring the work from the other people. Not sure where I read that, so I can't provide a reference to the stories/threads :-( btw, there is a survey about SF that you can fill out: http://sourceforge.net/survey/survey.php?group_id=1&survey_id=10599 Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/

Tim Peters

9 Jul 9 Jul

8:55 p.m.

[Tim]

...

OTOH, we're also interested in *helping* SF get better! SF is as much an Open Source project as Python, and it could become an incredible resource for the entire OS community.

[Greg Stein [mailto:gstein@lyra.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 4:04 AM]

...

This last statement is (unfortunately) not quite true. SourceForge is developed in a closed, cathedral environment. There is no CVS access to it, and all the developers work at VA Linux. Strictly speaking, the *output* of this closed development is GPL'd. But it isn't what you would expect.

Ah! You were reading my stmt as a claim about SF, rather than as a warning about the new status of Python <wink>. Just kidding. I was talking out of my ass there, and appreciate the correction.

bwarsaw＠beopen.com

28 Jun 28 Jun

1:27 p.m.

...

...
...
...
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"AR" == Andy Robinson writes:

AR> How many people here have actually created accounts for AR> themselves on SourceForge and tried to do stuff when logged in AR> - raise bugs and so on? Did it work for you? We ought to get AR> a few data points before making this the way Python is AR> managed. In general SF's web has been fine for me, although it is sometimes unavailable due to routing problems. I'm on a fairly reliable DSL line now, though I don't remember significantly more SF-blamable problems when I was on a 56K line. It's often quite slow to do CVS/SSH to SF. Sometimes I'll have to spin for several minutes just to do an update or a diff. That sucks. -Barry

Fred L. Drake, Jr.

1:30 p.m.

Andy Robinson writes:

...

I find the web interface totally unusable from IE5 and Netscape 4.XX, working over 64k lines or dialup lines. Once one logs in via SSL, only about one click in five ever returns a sensible page, and most just time out

I've not been able to reproduce this behavior; the Web interface seems to work well with IE5 and Netscape 4.XX for me; the only problem I've had with IE5 is accessing a project's anonymous FTP area from the project page (IE5 just froze completely). Netscape didn't exhibit that problem for me and allowed perfectly reasonable use. Sometimes it seems a little slow, but I attribute that to load and the public-key crypto using SSH for CVS access; I understand that CVS doesn't have the most efficient wire-protocol either. I should note that I've mostly used it over T1 and cable modem links; I don't know that smaller pipes would make a huge difference though. I'd be more suspicious of trans-Atlantic linkage than anything else without having more information. Routing can do strange things, so you may be getting the worst-possible link for SourceForge while other things get better routes, but I wouldn't expect that to be terribly consistent.

...

How many people here have actually created accounts for themselves on SourceForge and tried to do stuff when logged in - raise bugs and so on? Did it work for you? We ought to get a few data points before making this the way Python is managed.

I've never had the kind of problems you describe. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at beopen.com> BeOpen PythonLabs Team Member

Andrew Kuchling

2:07 p.m.

On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 09:30:22AM -0400, Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote:

...

I should note that I've mostly used it over T1 and cable modem links; I don't know that smaller pipes would make a huge difference though.

At home I have a 28.8 modem (never figured out how to upgrade it to 56K), and while CVS operations are fairly slow, there usually aren't any problems. The same goes for accessing the Web pages through SSL; somewhat slow, but reliable. --amk

Tim Peters

9 Jul 9 Jul

9:07 p.m.

[Fred L. Drake, Jr. Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 9:30 AM]

...

... the only problem I've had with IE5 is accessing a project's anonymous FTP area from the project page (IE5 just froze completely).

This happens to me too. And a new problem popped up early this weekend (maybe Friday already): when I click the "Browse CVS Repository" link near the bottom right of http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=5470 IE5 pops up a box asking me whether I really want to download file "cvsweb". Useless! This used to work fine, and I sure haven't changed my IE setup. Clearing the browser caches didn't help. The link resolves to http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi?cvsroot=python today, and I don't know whether it resolved to something different last week. Also have no idea how browsers decide what to do -- it's not simple & straightforward, like e.g. floating-point arithmetic <wink>. .cgi is not an extension registered on my machine either.

Thomas Wouters

9:55 p.m.

On Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 05:07:40PM -0400, Tim Peters wrote:

...

And a new problem popped up early this weekend (maybe Friday already): when I click the "Browse CVS Repository" link near the bottom right of

http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=5470

IE5 pops up a box asking me whether I really want to download file "cvsweb". Useless! This used to work fine, and I sure haven't changed my IE setup. Clearing the browser caches didn't help. The link resolves to

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi?cvsroot=python

today, and I don't know whether it resolved to something different last week. Also have no idea how browsers decide what to do -- it's not simple & straightforward, like e.g. floating-point arithmetic <wink>. .cgi is not an extension registered on my machine either.

Actually, it's supposed to be simple and straightforward. Unfortunately, certain Windows programs decided not to play along ;) HTTP responses contain a header 'Content-Type', which should be a mimetype for the file the HTTP response accompanies. They may also contain a 'Content-Disposition' header, which contains a suggested filename for when writing the file to disk. Now, the Content-Type thing is working okay nowadays, even though you can override it (sometimes) using the 'helpers' or 'applications' settings in your browser ;) But the Content-Disposition header creates a ton of confusion on IE. Some versions of IE seem to think that when it's present, a file should *always* be saved to disk, instead of shown, regardless of mimetype and/or helper applications. Also, some versions of IE go completely bananas if the Content-Disposition header is listed before the Content-Type header, and gives a very strange response: a 'page not found' error without saying which page it was trying to download ;) I know all this for a fact, because we provide our customers with 'Secure Webmail', a web interface to their email (next to normal interfaces, of course.) And for a long while our helpdesk was forced to tell our IE-using users to switch to Netscape, because IE was giving the above errors, and more. Eventually, my boss and I spent two days with a couple of windows boxes trying to figure out why this was happening. by tcpdumping and tracing exactly what was being sent and received. (Not that easy, given that it was 1) a switched network on our side, 2) a special load-balancing-switch on the server side, and 3) 'Secure' Webmail, using SSL ;) We managed to track the above bugs when using non-SSL connections, but a few bugs remained in SSL only, and we never figured out how or why :P The bugs are really obscure: IE sometimes giving an error when clicking on 'new mailbox', but usually it went fine. IE giving a popup with some unclear error message out of the blue. Sometimes showing images, sometimes offering them for download. All in all, I'm no longer suprised when something dynamic (CGI scripts, php/asp/jsp pages, whatever) refuses to work properly with IE ;) Quite a depressing thing to know, this, but you can't always blame the website-owners or the software developers. -- Thomas Wouters Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!

Greg Stein

10 Jul 10 Jul

9:40 a.m.

New subject: [OT] IE5 weirdness (was: Sourceforge Interface Concerns)

On Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 11:55:47PM +0200, Thomas Wouters wrote:

...

... ... Content-Type and Content-Disposition discussion ... ... All in all, I'm no longer suprised when something dynamic (CGI scripts, php/asp/jsp pages, whatever) refuses to work properly with IE ;) Quite a depressing thing to know, this, but you can't always blame the website-owners or the software developers.

No doubt. I'm there with you. While working on the DAV stuff, I found that it totally bombs on a GET on a DAV resource when the Last-Modified header is not returned. (!!) Of course, dynamic scripts practically never return that, so I had to insert the following in my httpd.conf: Header set Last-Modified "Fri, 03 Mar 2000 06:32:31 GMT" </Files> Pretty fuggin broken, if you ask me :-) Oh. Even more broken: it makes you send the time. It doesn't display it in the Windows Explorer / Web Folder like you would expect. The "Modified" column is simply blank. *boggle* Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/

Greg Stein

9:35 a.m.

bah. just file feature requests for them to use ViewCVS. cvsweb is a piece of crap anyways :-) Cheers, -g On Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 05:07:40PM -0400, Tim Peters wrote:

...

[Fred L. Drake, Jr. Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 9:30 AM]

...
... the only problem I've had with IE5 is accessing a project's anonymous FTP area from the project page (IE5 just froze completely).

This happens to me too.

And a new problem popped up early this weekend (maybe Friday already): when I click the "Browse CVS Repository" link near the bottom right of

http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=5470

IE5 pops up a box asking me whether I really want to download file "cvsweb". Useless! This used to work fine, and I sure haven't changed my IE setup. Clearing the browser caches didn't help. The link resolves to

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi?cvsroot=python

today, and I don't know whether it resolved to something different last week. Also have no idea how browsers decide what to do -- it's not simple & straightforward, like e.g. floating-point arithmetic <wink>. .cgi is not an extension registered on my machine either.

-- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/

Fred L. Drake, Jr.

9:20 p.m.

Greg Stein writes:

...

bah. just file feature requests for them to use ViewCVS. cvsweb is a piece of crap anyways :-)

I've heard you say this before, but I've never had any problems with cvsweb. The display seems fine and I've never missed a feature. If you're being serious and not just plugging your own code, you need to be specific about the problems, and how ViewCVS is better. The problem with had with ViewCVS at python.org was the use of a single file for the script; parsing the whole thing for every run was just too slow. Part of that is the machine, part was configuration, and part was an overly high cost to the convenient installation. The last of those is in your court (possibly fixed by a more recent version; I don't know). -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at beopen.com> BeOpen PythonLabs Team Member

Greg Stein

9:29 p.m.

On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 05:20:04PM -0400, Fred L. Drake, Jr. wrote:

...

Greg Stein writes:

...
bah. just file feature requests for them to use ViewCVS. cvsweb is a piece of crap anyways :-)

I've heard you say this before, but I've never had any problems with cvsweb. The display seems fine and I've never missed a feature. If you're being serious and not just plugging your own code, you need to be specific about the problems, and how ViewCVS is better.

Fredrik Lundh

9:34 p.m.

fred drake:

...

I've heard you say this before, but I've never had any problems with cvsweb. The display seems fine and I've never missed a feature. If you're being serious and not just plugging your own code, you need to be specific about the problems, and how ViewCVS is better.

it works with MSIE5, for a start. and it's written by greg, in python. that's all I need to know ;-) the IE problem could be a configuration problem, of course. unless tim beats me to it, I'll submit a support request some day... </F>

Thomas Wouters

9:34 p.m.

On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 11:34:41PM +0200, Fredrik Lundh wrote:

...

the IE problem could be a configuration problem, of course. unless tim beats me to it, I'll submit a support request some day...

I seriously doubt it, unless cvsweb has an option 'break IE5'. (Or 'unbreak IE5', if you so wish ;) The symptoms Tim described exactly match one of the known bugs in IE. It might be fixed in a newer version of cvsweb, of course. If anyone is going to submit a support request, feel free to pass them my email for information on that bug ;-) -- Thomas Wouters Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!

Tim Peters

11 Jul 11 Jul

3:25 a.m.

[/F, on ViewCVS's virtues]

...

it works with MSIE5, for a start.

and it's written by greg, in python. that's all I need to know ;-)

the IE problem could be a configuration problem, of course. unless tim beats me to it, I'll submit a support request some day...

And I will unless you beat me to it <wink>. In the meantime, I downloaded stinking Netscape last night. Works fine. IE5 was having major problems displaying the SF Member Options page too (large table). And SF ftp access froze. And the new thing with displaying the CVS repository. They all work OK under NS. Surprised me, as my previous experiences with NS were a bloody nightmare of crashes and corruption! BTW, I'm certain I didn't do anything to change my IE5 config (& the SF CVS access worked fine on Friday).

Fred L. Drake, Jr.

5:52 a.m.

Tim Peters writes:

...

OK under NS. Surprised me, as my previous experiences with NS were a bloody nightmare of crashes and corruption! BTW, I'm certain I didn't do anything to change my IE5 config (& the SF CVS access worked fine on Friday).

You have to realize that they probably test with Netscape, but rarely if ever with IE. That's a function of audience. ;) -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at beopen.com> BeOpen PythonLabs Team Member

Skip Montanaro

29 Jun 29 Jun

1:38 p.m.

Andy> How many people here have actually created accounts for themselves Andy> on SourceForge and tried to do stuff when logged in - raise bugs Andy> and so on? Did it work for you? I've submitted a few patches with no problems. My usual connections are a corporate T1-ish connection or cable modem access from home, however. -- Skip Montanaro, skip@mojam.com, http://www.mojam.com/, http://www.musi-cal.com/ On Phil Jackson's ability to manage multiple Lakers superstars, Shaquille O'Neal said: "He's got the rings. I listen to the man with the rings."

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Andrew Kuchling
Andy Robinson
bwarsaw＠beopen.com
Fred L. Drake, Jr.
Fredrik Lundh
Greg Stein
Neil Hodgson
Skip Montanaro
Thomas Wouters
Tim Peters

Sourceforge Interface Concerns

Andy Robinson

Neil Hodgson

bwarsaw＠beopen.com

Fred L. Drake, Jr.

Andrew Kuchling

Fred L. Drake, Jr.

Fredrik Lundh

Fred L. Drake, Jr.

Skip Montanaro

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