Re: [Python-Dev] Continuing 2.x
Kristj?n Valur J?nsson <kristjan@ccpgames.com> writes:
James Y Knight said: The python community has already decided many times over that Python2 is dead and Python3 is the future
But the patient is very much alive and kicking, no matter what the good doctor declares. Python 2.x is in widespread use, with gazillion lines of .py code. In, there is another gazillion lines of .c and .cpp code both in extensions and embedding applications in use. I?m quite happy with the community at large moving its development focus to 3.x but it is a bit harsh to deprive those left behind of the keys to the old house.
Exactly. Has anyone here analyzed download stats on py.org lately? Please feel free to prove me wrong, but by my reckoning, and at least for Windows MSI installer files, people are still downloading Python 2.X roughly 3 to 4 times more often than Python 3.X today, some 2 years after 3.X's release. This is from http://www.python.org/webstats for September and October, based on file size and bytes fetched for all significant versions. As one metric, roughly 439K people fetched 2.X MSI files in September, and 124K went for 3.X. Granted, there are plenty of variables such as preinstalled Pythons on Macs and Linux, though many would tend to skew 2.X dominance even higher. Moreover, downloads may be more reflective of new users, than existing users who are likely in the 2.X camp. But clearly, the 2.X patient is hardly dead; it still reflects the vast majority of the Python world today. I hope 3.X use expands; in fact, I've bet the future of at least one book on it. And even 1/4 of new users seems a large enough subset to care about too. But one can't help but wonder if most of the development community is focused on some imaginary future user base, at the expense of the much larger current user base. Then again, there's still plenty of Fortran77 code out there, so... --Mark Lutz (http://learning-python.com, http://rmi.net/~lutz)
Am 28.10.2010 18:07, schrieb lutz@rmi.net:
Kristj?n Valur J?nsson <kristjan@ccpgames.com> writes:
James Y Knight said: The python community has already decided many times over that Python2 is dead and Python3 is the future
But the patient is very much alive and kicking, no matter what the good doctor declares. Python 2.x is in widespread use, with gazillion lines of .py code. In, there is another gazillion lines of .c and .cpp code both in extensions and embedding applications in use. I?m quite happy with the community at large moving its development focus to 3.x but it is a bit harsh to deprive those left behind of the keys to the old house.
Exactly.
Has anyone here analyzed download stats on py.org lately? Please feel free to prove me wrong, but by my reckoning, and at least for Windows MSI installer files, people are still downloading Python 2.X roughly 3 to 4 times more often than Python 3.X today, some 2 years after 3.X's release.
This doesn't worry me too much. Just look at how long it usually takes for 2.(x+1) to actually get used over 2.x, or even 2.(x-1) -- and it's fairly obvious that this time will be a bit longer for 2.x -> 3.x. Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:07 PM, <lutz@rmi.net> wrote: ..
Has anyone here analyzed download stats on py.org lately? Please feel free to prove me wrong, but by my reckoning, and at least for Windows MSI installer files, people are still downloading Python 2.X roughly 3 to 4 times more often than Python 3.X today, some 2 years after 3.X's release.
I don't think this is a fair comparison. At least not until 3.2 final is out for some time. Note that 2.7 is at the moment the latest stable release and 3.x releases so far have suffered from developers' attention divided between 2.x and 3.x series. I believe the trend will change with 3.2 release.
On Oct 28, 2010, at 04:07 PM, lutz@rmi.net wrote:
I hope 3.X use expands; in fact, I've bet the future of at least one book on it. And even 1/4 of new users seems a large enough subset to care about too. But one can't help but wonder if most of the development community is focused on some imaginary future user base, at the expense of the much larger current user base. Then again, there's still plenty of Fortran77 code out there, so...
Python 2 will live on for a long time. Other than promising to bug-fix maintain Python 2.7 for much longer than usual, which we've already done, what specifically should we do? A no-new-feature Python 2.8 doesn't make sense, and I'm not convinced that a new-feature Python 2.8 really helps folks who are stuck on Python 2 for whatever reason. -Barry
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:07:50 -0000, lutz@rmi.net wrote:
I hope 3.X use expands; in fact, I've bet the future of at least one book on it. And even 1/4 of new users seems a large enough subset to care about too. But one can't help but wonder if most of the development community is focused on some imaginary future user base, at the expense of the much larger current user base. Then again, there's still plenty of Fortran77 code out there, so...
Given the existing rate of Python3 adoption (which by the signs we see in the tracker is increasing), you can hardly call the user base imaginary. Further, Python development (and development in general!) is *always* focused on a "future user base" in the sense you are using it, not the "current user base". That's pretty much part of the definition of development :) But the reality is that almost all those Python2 users are future Python3 users, so they *are* the future user base. And like Georg said, as far as we can see Python3 uptake is pretty much right on the schedule that was predicted when it was first released. -- R. David Murray www.bitdance.com
On 28/10/2010 13:20, R. David Murray wrote:
I hope 3.X use expands; in fact, I've bet the future of at least one book on it. And even 1/4 of new users seems a large enough subset to care about too. But one can't help but wonder if most of the development community is focused on some imaginary future user base, at the expense of the much larger current user base. Then again, there's still plenty of Fortran77 code out there, so... Given the existing rate of Python3 adoption (which by the signs we see in
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:07:50 -0000, lutz@rmi.net wrote: the tracker is increasing),
The Wing IDE guys get a lot of feedback from the "report issue" dialog that is built in to the IDE. This sends information to them which includes which version of Python the user is working with. They are seeing an ever increasing proportion number of users working with Python 3 (I don't have numbers though). All the best, Michael Foord
you can hardly call the user base imaginary. Further, Python development (and development in general!) is *always* focused on a "future user base" in the sense you are using it, not the "current user base". That's pretty much part of the definition of development :)
But the reality is that almost all those Python2 users are future Python3 users, so they *are* the future user base. And like Georg said, as far as we can see Python3 uptake is pretty much right on the schedule that was predicted when it was first released.
-- R. David Murray www.bitdance.com _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/fuzzyman%40voidspace.org.u...
lutz@rmi.net writes:
But one can't help but wonder if most of the development community is focused on some imaginary future user base, at the expense of the much larger current user base.
Of course not. Most of the development community is *focused* on a very real, very current, and very *small* user base. Themselves and their employers and/or customers. What attention they do pay to other user bases is relatively unconcentrated (but far from negligible!) And that's as it should be. And so what if it's at the "expense" of the current user base. By and large, the "user base" has paid no expenses of the developers to date. Nobody has a problem with that, but there is no promise that free ride will continue forever. Eventually the Piper presents his bill....
Am 28.10.2010 18:07, schrieb lutz@rmi.net:
Kristj?n Valur J?nsson <kristjan@ccpgames.com> writes:
James Y Knight said: The python community has already decided many times over that Python2 is dead and Python3 is the future
But the patient is very much alive and kicking, no matter what the good doctor declares. Python 2.x is in widespread use, with gazillion lines of .py code. In, there is another gazillion lines of .c and .cpp code both in extensions and embedding applications in use. I?m quite happy with the community at large moving its development focus to 3.x but it is a bit harsh to deprive those left behind of the keys to the old house.
Exactly.
Has anyone here analyzed download stats on py.org lately?
I don't think anybody here questions that usage of 2.x is orders of magnitude larger than that of 3.x, and that it will stay that way for quite some time. If, by "Exactly", you also supported "it is a bit harsh", then I disagree. It's not harsh at all. Existing 2.x users are *not* deprived at all. 2.7 releases are still being made, and existing 2.x code will continue to run just fine for many years to come. Users who chose to ignore 3.x can well continue to work in their projects, without having to worry that bugs won't be fixed anymore.
Please feel free to prove me wrong, but by my reckoning, and at least for Windows MSI installer files, people are still downloading Python 2.X roughly 3 to 4 times more often than Python 3.X today, some 2 years after 3.X's release.
Again, no doubt about that - I readily believe you without checking, and you could have said that the factor was 10 and I still would have believe it. It just doesn't worry me.
But one can't help but wonder if most of the development community is focused on some imaginary future user base, at the expense of the much larger current user base.
Yes, we do focus on future users, but we are also working on future releases. But not at the expense of the much larger current user base. They are being given much time to convert their code to 3.x. So far, there has been no pressure at all to migrate. Now, we are telling them that there won't be new features in 2.x anymore - but many haven't switched to 2.7, either. Debian still ships with 2.5, and the next Debian release will be shipping with 2.6. So any theoretical 2.8 release would be just as irrelevant to existing users for many years to come (e.g. the *next* Debian release would switch to 2.7). Regards, Martin
participants (8)
-
"Martin v. Löwis" -
Alexander Belopolsky -
Barry Warsaw -
Georg Brandl -
lutz＠rmi.net -
Michael Foord -
R. David Murray -
Stephen J. Turnbull