Moving to Discourse
As mentioned previously [0], the Steering Council decided to switch from python-dev to Discourse (discuss.python.org). We're aware that Discourse is not perfect. The previous mail thread [0] lists various shortcomings, as well as some workarounds. However, we don't see anything that would block Python development. Practically, the switch means that: - New PEPs should be announced in the PEPs category on Discourse (rather than on this list), and - The Devguide will list Discourse, rather than mailing lists, as the primary communication channel. Note that you can have development-related discussions anywhere, as long as you (eventually) include all relevant people. You're welcome to continue using python-dev and other mailing lists, IRC, in-person sprints, etc. But for PEP-level changes, we believe python-dev no longer reaches the proper audience. For the related docs changes, see [peps-2775] and [devguide-945]. Note that this is documentation, not law – if something is unclear or doesn't make sense, please ask for clarification or propose edits. [0]: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/VHFLDK43D... [peps-2775]: https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2775 [devguide-945]: https://github.com/python/devguide/pull/945 — Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
On Sep 20, 2022, at 02:47, Petr Viktorin <encukou@gmail.com> wrote:
Note that you can have development-related discussions anywhere, as long as you (eventually) include all relevant people. You're welcome to continue using python-dev and other mailing lists, IRC, in-person sprints, etc. But for PEP-level changes, we believe python-dev no longer reaches the proper audience.
Please also make sure your PEP’s Discussions-To header points to the right forum. https://peps.python.org/pep-0001/#discussing-a-pep Cheers, -Barry
Hello, good to see that someone in the Steering Council still reads here, as some of the actions necessary to make either mailing-list mode or RSS a viable alternative [1] need an official "hat": * mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that). That's the only way to make sure all people using mailing-list mode get the same set of posts. Giving this set of filters an official status would allow external mirroring and archiving (relying solely on discourse.org for archiving is imprudent). * RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age / length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are *much* increased. Cheers, Baptiste [1] hopefully "we don't see anything that would block Python development" doesn't mean alternatives to the (slow and annoying) web interface are abandoned. [2] https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57... Viktorin a écrit :
As mentioned previously [0], the Steering Council decided to switch from python-dev to Discourse (discuss.python.org). We're aware that Discourse is not perfect. The previous mail thread [0] lists various shortcomings, as well as some workarounds. However, we don't see anything that would block Python development.
Practically, the switch means that: - New PEPs should be announced in the PEPs category on Discourse (rather than on this list), and - The Devguide will list Discourse, rather than mailing lists, as the primary communication channel.
Note that you can have development-related discussions anywhere, as long as you (eventually) include all relevant people. You're welcome to continue using python-dev and other mailing lists, IRC, in-person sprints, etc. But for PEP-level changes, we believe python-dev no longer reaches the proper audience.
For the related docs changes, see [peps-2775] and [devguide-945]. Note that this is documentation, not law – if something is unclear or doesn't make sense, please ask for clarification or propose edits.
[0]: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/VHFLDK43D...
[peps-2775]: https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2775 [devguide-945]: https://github.com/python/devguide/pull/945
— Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/NS5C6EPM...
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On 21. 09. 22 10:17, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
Hello,
good to see that someone in the Steering Council still reads here, as some of the actions necessary to make either mailing-list mode or RSS a viable alternative [1] need an official "hat":
* mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that). That's the only way to make sure all people using mailing-list mode get the same set of posts. Giving this set of filters an official status would allow external mirroring and archiving (relying solely on discourse.org for archiving is imprudent).
Do you have a proposal we could standardize? Open a PR on the devguide. You shouldn't need an official hat-wearer around, unless there's a disagreement. But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing list get the same set of posts. Different people have different interests. Only mirroring/archiving Core-Dev + PEPs also seems pretty arbitrary.
* RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age / length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are *much* increased.
I'm not sure what the PSF can do here -- this sounds like it should be a feature request to Discourse. I guess the mailing list mode is a better option if you don't want to miss anything. Is it lacking something that RSS provides, besides easier filtering?
Cheers, Baptiste
[1] hopefully "we don't see anything that would block Python development" doesn't mean alternatives to the (slow and annoying) web interface are abandoned.
[2] https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57...
Viktorin a écrit :
As mentioned previously [0], the Steering Council decided to switch from python-dev to Discourse (discuss.python.org). We're aware that Discourse is not perfect. The previous mail thread [0] lists various shortcomings, as well as some workarounds. However, we don't see anything that would block Python development.
Practically, the switch means that: - New PEPs should be announced in the PEPs category on Discourse (rather than on this list), and - The Devguide will list Discourse, rather than mailing lists, as the primary communication channel.
Note that you can have development-related discussions anywhere, as long as you (eventually) include all relevant people. You're welcome to continue using python-dev and other mailing lists, IRC, in-person sprints, etc. But for PEP-level changes, we believe python-dev no longer reaches the proper audience.
For the related docs changes, see [peps-2775] and [devguide-945]. Note that this is documentation, not law – if something is unclear or doesn't make sense, please ask for clarification or propose edits.
[0]: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/VHFLDK43D...
[peps-2775]: https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2775 [devguide-945]: https://github.com/python/devguide/pull/945
— Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
Hello, Le 21/09/2022 à 13:14, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
On 21. 09. 22 10:17, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
* mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that). [...]
Do you have a proposal we could standardize? Open a PR on the devguide. You shouldn't need an official hat-wearer around, unless there's a disagreement.
I believe indeed that the devguide should provide complete guidance towards getting a python-dev equivalent using mailing-list mode, to avoid many users having to reinvent the wheel. I don't have enough experience to give such advice myself (yet).
But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing list get the same set of posts. Different people have different interests.
That's exaggerated: often many people share common interests, and thus want to follow a common set of discussions. This is what makes up a discussion forum. Python-dev has served well its hundreds (or is it thousands) of users over all those years, so its perimeter must be sensible enough.
Only mirroring/archiving Core-Dev + PEPs also seems pretty arbitrary.
According to the devguide, "these are the Discourse equivalents to the python-dev mailing list". I believe many people want just that. This is also the perimeter that makes most sense for long term external archival, as it is likely to contain all major design discussions.
* RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age / length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are *much* increased.
I'm not sure what the PSF can do here -- this sounds like it should be a feature request to Discourse.
Discourse could indeed make their RSS interface much friendlier. Alas, as I say in my previous message, a very useful feature request (per-category post feeds) has been lingering for 6 years. So I won't hold my breath. In the meantime, I suppose Discourse must have some instance configuration knobs, and it would make sense that the length of the RSS files can be changed there (being a very arbitrary limit). The PSF could then choose a more appropriate length just for their own instance (the current 25-post limit represents less than 24 hours; a few days instead would be nice).
I guess the mailing list mode is a better option if you don't want to miss anything. Is it lacking something that RSS provides, besides easier filtering?
There is room between not missing anything and having less than 24 hours of history available. Since you asked (but not a major point): RSS is accessible without registering an account. Cheers, Baptiste
[2] https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57...
On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 12:41 AM Baptiste Carvello < devel2022@baptiste-carvello.net> wrote:
Hello,
Le 21/09/2022 à 13:14, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
On 21. 09. 22 10:17, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
* mailing-list mode: there needs to be a *standardized* set of filters to access Core-Dev + PEPs (and only that). [...]
Do you have a proposal we could standardize? Open a PR on the devguide. You shouldn't need an official hat-wearer around, unless there's a disagreement.
I believe indeed that the devguide should provide complete guidance towards getting a python-dev equivalent using mailing-list mode, to avoid many users having to reinvent the wheel. I don't have enough experience to give such advice myself (yet).
But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing list get the same set of posts. Different people have different interests.
That's exaggerated: often many people share common interests, and thus want to follow a common set of discussions.
... which is expected to take place on Discourse. A key point here is we are trying to consolidate after having this split approach for a few years that people found annoying. We also acknowledge we can't stop people from talking wherever they want on the internet.
This is what makes up a discussion forum. Python-dev has served well its hundreds (or is it thousands) of users over all those years, so its perimeter must be sensible enough.
But the mailing list has also not served others well either (and people have explicitly told us the mailing list didn't serve them, so this isn't a hypothesis), so I don't think it "must be sensible enough" that what python-dev does is always best/right/sensible. There is no perfect solution, hence why we had this lengthy discussion to begin with.
Only mirroring/archiving Core-Dev + PEPs also seems pretty arbitrary.
According to the devguide, "these are the Discourse equivalents to the python-dev mailing list". I believe many people want just that. This is also the perimeter that makes most sense for long term external archival, as it is likely to contain all major design discussions.
* RSS: the shortcomings I described in my august post [2] are still there. At the very least, the PSF needs to make sure that the age / length limits of the RSS files (both core-dev.rss and posts.rss) are *much* increased.
I'm not sure what the PSF can do here -- this sounds like it should be a feature request to Discourse.
Discourse could indeed make their RSS interface much friendlier. Alas, as I say in my previous message, a very useful feature request (per-category post feeds) has been lingering for 6 years. So I won't hold my breath.
In the meantime, I suppose Discourse must have some instance configuration knobs, and it would make sense that the length of the RSS files can be changed there (being a very arbitrary limit). The PSF could then choose a more appropriate length just for their own instance (the current 25-post limit represents less than 24 hours; a few days instead would be nice).
If you can find the setting then we can look at tweaking it, but a quick glance at the admin interface didn't turn up anything obvious. -Brett
I guess the mailing list mode is a better option if you don't want to miss anything. Is it lacking something that RSS provides, besides easier filtering?
There is room between not missing anything and having less than 24 hours of history available.
Since you asked (but not a major point): RSS is accessible without registering an account.
Cheers, Baptiste
[2]
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UZJ27G57...
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MBARP67I... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Hello, I'm afraid you misundertood my message. I'm not discussing the choice of Discourse as a communication medium (which would be futile after the decision has been made), just the thematic perimeter that would make up an equivalent of Python-dev (for those hundreds of us who happened to like it). Le 22/09/2022 à 19:58, Brett Cannon a écrit :
On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 12:41 AM Baptiste Carvello <devel2022@baptiste-carvello.net <mailto:devel2022@baptiste-carvello.net>> wrote: Le 21/09/2022 à 13:14, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
> But I don't think the goal is to make sure all people using the mailing > list get the same set of posts. Different people have different interests.
That's exaggerated: often many people share common interests, and thus want to follow a common set of discussions.
... which is expected to take place on Discourse. [...]
"Discourse", without further qualification, is a discussion medium, not a discussion forum as I mean it ("a group of people sharing common interests…"). The Python discourse instance is the equivalent of Python-list + Python-dev + Ideas + Typing + Packaging + whatever else. Nobody is expected to read all of that, are they? Thus it makes sense to be interested in a sensible subset of it.
This is what makes up a discussion forum. Python-dev has served well its hundreds (or is it thousands) of users over all those years, so its perimeter must be sensible enough.
But the mailing list has also not served others well either [...], so I don't think it "must be sensible enough" that what python-dev does is always best/right/sensible. [...]
My words "sensible enough" only qualified the *thematic perimeter* of Python-dev: design discussions including PEPs, relation to other important projects in the community, sometimes general programming philosophy. This perimeter is a product of experience. There's a reason Python-dev was split from Python-list, then Ideas from Python-dev etc. Let history inform us. In conclusion, the only thing I'm looking for is a fully working way to access this information perimeter from a convenient mail-like interface. Various solutions have been handwaved, but none is ready for prime time.
In the meantime, I suppose Discourse must have some instance configuration knobs, and it would make sense that the length of the RSS files can be changed there (being a very arbitrary limit). The PSF could then choose a more appropriate length just for their own instance (the current 25-post limit represents less than 24 hours; a few days instead would be nice).
If you can find the setting then we can look at tweaking it, but a quick glance at the admin interface didn't turn up anything obvious.
Sorry to say, but this is yet another sign that Discourse is not mature enough for a community as big as Python. This set-in-stone limit is obviously devised for a very small community. Cheers, Baptiste
participants (4)
-
Baptiste Carvello -
Barry Warsaw -
Brett Cannon -
Petr Viktorin