Re: python-dev Summary for 2005-01-16 through 2005-01-31
Michele Simionato wrote [on c.l.py]:
Brett Cannon: [... python-dev summary ... boilerplate change ...]
+1 for this idea. The summary looks much better now :) Keep the good work going,
Sorry, but i have to disagree. I hope you won't take this reply personally, Michele, since it's directed to all c.l.py readers, as well as (particularly) at Python users who [unlike you] are mostly take and rather less give. Although this is inherently the nature of open source, in certain cases this can be taken too far. I have a long history of doing things, and an equally long history giving up doing them. This stems from a personal belief that organic growth (IMHO the healthiest type) will only be engendered by variety. I was the Chairman of the Sun UK User Group once. When I was elected I said I would serve for two years, and when I resigned after two years many people said to me "Steve, please reconsider your decision". I observed, perhaps somewhat cynically, that most of the people who said this were motivated by the wish to avoid the pain of locating and electing a new chairman. Guess what ... when I refused to reconsider they found a new chairman, who was at least as good as me (I thought he was better), and life carried on. If you were to ask a member of the Sun UK User Group now the name of their second chairman I'd be very surprised if they had any idea who the hell Steve Holden was. (Historical note: the first chairman was Chris Brown, and nobody will remember him either). Now, the reason for this specific rant is this: I can tell a cry for help when I see one. Brett has done a magnificent job of providing python-dev summaries since Andrew decided he'd had enough, and he is to be congratulated for it. I managed to offload another bunch of work on him (moderation of various troublesome PyCon mailing lists), but at least I was able to recompense him by letting him into PyCon for nothing. I can say this because I am confident that nobody will even think of suggesting that Brett's contribution to the Python community doesn't entitle him to a free place at PyCon. I suspect most readers of this list would feel the same about Guido (I certainly hope so, because he too is a free-loader this year :-). I would actually like a free place at PyCon to represent recognition of significant contributions to the Python community, but there is a conflict here with another of my goals (raising funds for the PSF). But frankly, I think it's time someone else stood up and said "Brett, you've done a magnificent job. Hesitant though I am about replacing you, I would like to volunteer for the task, because only when you are free from the burden of writing the python-dev summaries will we see what else you are capable of". Since I am at best an intermittent reader of python-dev I can say this without fear of having to stand up myself. Oops, I'm rambling. I guess what I'm trying to say boils down to "Ask not what the Python community can do for you ...", and anyone who can't provide the remainder of the analogy is too young to consider themselves a victim of this post, and can claim a free ticket until they are old enough ti understand what history is. I like to think that although I don't make frequent checkins to the code base I do *something* to engender the Python community spirit (though I don't consider my own interpretation of that spirit to uniquely define it), and I'm damned sure Brett has done his share. It would be great if just a *few* more people who are currently consuming the fruits of our labors would stop sitting on the sidelines shouting "great job!" and roll their sleeves up. I hope I'll be able to put these remarks in a corporate context for PyCon - which astute readers will have noticed will be my last PyCon as chairman. I am happy to say that Andrew Kuchling has finally admitted his lust for power and confirmed that he is prepared to act as chairman for 2006, and I wish him well. More later one-more-thing-given-up-ly y'rs - steve
Steve Holden wrote:
Now, the reason for this specific rant is this: I can tell a cry for help when I see one. Brett has done a magnificent job of providing python-dev summaries since Andrew decided he'd had enough, and he is to be congratulated for it. I managed to offload another bunch of work on him (moderation of various troublesome PyCon mailing lists), but at least I was able to recompense him by letting him into PyCon for nothing.
The more I participate, the more I can relate to Eric Raymond's notion of a "gift society". Volunteers give their contributions to the community just because they want to, and they may get recognition in return. But because these are gifts, you can just stop giving them away at any time, and nobody should feel bad about doing so. The community only is only entitled to the contributor saying so - finding somebody else to step in is indeed optional. I don't actually know whether Brett would prefer to hand over the python-dev summaries to somebody else, but if he wants to, he could just *stop* publishing them, with nobody taking over, and my appreciation of this contribution would not change at all. Continuing it until a new volunteer steps forward is, as I said, truly optional. I still recall when Tim Peters reappeared in the net (even though I haven't been around long enough to remember him disappear), and I know I didn't understand all the cheering and praising (I do now, of course). So their isn't anything wrong with taking a vacation from a project for some time, not even if the vacation takes a few years :-) Enough ranting. Regards, Martin
Steve Holden wrote:
Michele Simionato wrote [on c.l.py]:
Brett Cannon:
[... python-dev summary ... boilerplate change ...]
+1 for this idea. The summary looks much better now :) Keep the good work going,
Sorry, but i have to disagree. I hope you won't take this reply personally, Michele, since it's directed to all c.l.py readers, as well as (particularly) at Python users who [unlike you] are mostly take and rather less give. Although this is inherently the nature of open source, in certain cases this can be taken too far.
[SNIP]
Now, the reason for this specific rant is this: I can tell a cry for help when I see one. Brett has done a magnificent job of providing python-dev summaries since Andrew decided he'd had enough, and he is to be congratulated for it. I managed to offload another bunch of work on him (moderation of various troublesome PyCon mailing lists), but at least I was able to recompense him by letting him into PyCon for nothing.
[SNIP]
But frankly, I think it's time someone else stood up and said "Brett, you've done a magnificent job. Hesitant though I am about replacing you, I would like to volunteer for the task, because only when you are free from the burden of writing the python-dev summaries will we see what else you are capable of". Since I am at best an intermittent reader of python-dev I can say this without fear of having to stand up myself.
[SNIP] [I am going to use this to reply to both Steve and Martin] As Steve mentioned above, he can spot a cry for help when he sees one. I think the problem is that I am a total sucker when it comes to the Python community and python-dev. Anyone who has been on the python-dev list for as long as I have been a participant has most likely seen my almost yearly "thank you" emails I send the list (which there will probably be another one of once I choose where I am going to pursue my doctorate; I have acceptances but I am still waiting to here back from 9 more schools). Usually it is just me gushing to python-dev, thanking the list for how Python has gotten me where I am today. And that statement is completely sincere; python-dev has sculpted me into the programmer that I am (does this mean I can blame python-dev for my own buggy code? =). And for that I will be eternally grateful to all of the wonderful people I have gotten to work with and know on this list. It has also made me want to help people to get involved on python-dev in hopes others would benefit from python-dev the same way I have. Granted, python-dev tends not to attract people like I was when I started getting involved (a philosophy degree and 4 CS courses does not equal a good programmer by default =), but I have always hoped that through my efforts some other people could come to enjoy hacking on Python, learn some things, and advance the language. But I think the big problem is that the Summaries have become a "gift" in the truest sense of the word. I lost all personal benefit from the Summaries over a year ago. Initially I learned a ton from all of the reading I was doing and the research required to understand what the heck people were talking about. But I have graduated from "The School of Hard Knocks". At this point I do the Summaries entirely altruistically, giving back what I can to the community in a way that I know benefits many people which happens to have zero benefit to me now. The Summaries consume what little free time I do have for Python which is unfortunate. I have always hoped I would get to the point in my programming abilities that I would be a larger asset to python-dev as a programmer than as a writer. I would like to think I have reached that point finally after my over two and a half years on the list (I can't believe I first posted to the list on June 17, 2002!). So, to make sure I don't squander what time I do have for Python waiting for a possible replacement that might never come, I have decided that I am going to stop doing the python-dev Summaries after PyCon; the Summary covering the last half of March 2005 will be it for me. Hopefully I will be more valuable as an active participant on python-dev again instead of as a passive listener who just happens to chime in on occasion and squash a simple bug when I am procrastinating from doing my homework. This has been a long time coming and I needed a swift kick in the ass to finally get me to stop. I thank you, Steve, for giving me that kick like the English gentleman you are. =) -Brett
Brett C. wrote:
I have decided that I am going to stop doing the python-dev Summaries after PyCon; the Summary covering the last half of March 2005 will be it for me.
I (as well as most, I'd guess) have enjoyed your voice in the summaries. Thanks for a great series of summaries. Perhaps your final summary could be a personal view of PyCon for those of us unable to get there. If you make no more contribution to Python than you have so far, you will have done us a great service. Hip-hip-hooray-ly y'rs --Scott David Daniels Scott.Daniels@Acm.Org
participants (4)
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"Martin v. Löwis" -
Brett C. -
Scott David Daniels -
Steve Holden