Hello fellow developers. My name is David Hastings and I am a new subscriber to the python-dev list. I'm also a little new to python but I can get around in it. I have been learning how to use the language for about a year now. First, some information about myself. I am a senior attending the University of Minnesota. Today was the last day of classes for the spring semester and also the last day of my college career. I am receiving a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science degree. Man it feels good to be done ! This last semester a friend (Michael Sampson) and I took an independent study class where we sign up with a Professor and decide on a project and work on it until the end of the semester. The project that was decided upon, with the advice of the Professor, was to make a CGIpm python module that reflected CGI.pm for perl. We noticed that there is a current cgi module for python and even a cgipm module. These modules are very useful, but did not include all the functions that CGI.pm for perl provides. It turns out that my Professor really likes python and would have loved to see a CGIpm python module for python that was like the CGI.pm module for perl. (I think he is a bit turned off by perl, more because it is a language that is not that easy to pick up unless you are familiar with unix, namely sed and awk.) We decided to take the oportunity and wrote CGIpm.py. I'm not going to go into a lot of details in this e-mail since it is an introductory e-mail, but the first version of CGIpm.py is complete. I feel that this e-mail is a bit long winded as is, so I think I will end it. I can not wait to start reading about all the new ideas, development, and contributions that this list will provide. Dave
Welcome to the Python world. If you are just new to Python, you will get a much more varied and interesting impression of Python from python-list[1] . Python-dev is where the people evolving the language argue about the precise semantics of generator expressions and what bytecodes will give the best performance. You are of course welcome to stick around but be aware that the discussion is very focused unlike on python-list where everything Pythonic is welcome. Paul Prescod [1] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Paul Prescod
Welcome to the Python world. If you are just new to Python, you will get a much more varied and interesting impression of Python from python-list[1] . Python-dev is where the people evolving the language argue about the precise semantics of generator expressions and what bytecodes will give the best performance. You are of course welcome to stick around but be aware that the discussion is very focused unlike on python-list where everything Pythonic is welcome.
Paul Prescod
[1] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Oh. I'm sorry. I thought that "...and first drafts of PEPs are often posted here for initial review ..." meant that I was supposed to post here if I had something new that might be welcomed. I got that quote off of the help section in the python page in the section about the python-dev list. Is there a better place where I should post this ? thanks, Dave
David Hastings wrote:
...
Oh. I'm sorry. I thought that "...and first drafts of PEPs are often posted here for initial review ..." meant that I was supposed to post here if I had something new that might be welcomed. I got that quote off of the help section in the python page in the section about the python-dev list. Is there a better place where I should post this ?
I didn't know that you had a PEP in mind. Even so, it seems that your PEP would be about a new module (which is a tough sell) and a module that replaces an existing module (an even tougher sell). You should refine the idea in python-list before writing up a formal PEP. Paul Prescod
Oh. I'm sorry. I thought that "...and first drafts of PEPs are often posted here for initial review ..." meant that I was supposed to post here if I had something new that might be welcomed. I got that quote off of the help section in the python page in the section about the python-dev list. Is there a better place where I should post this ?
Having a PEP is different from what you posted. Read a few of the PEPs listed here: http://www.python.org/peps/ to get a feel for how PEPs are written. - Josiah
Paul Prescod
I didn't know that you had a PEP in mind. Even so, it seems that your PEP would be about a new module (which is a tough sell) and a module that replaces an existing module (an even tougher sell). You should refine the idea in python-list before writing up a formal PEP.
Paul Prescod
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Once again, I'm sorry. I hope there is a way that these e-mails can be removed from the web page. My intention wasn't to cause clutter. Also, my intention was not to replace any modules. I just wanted to build on it I guess. We did actually use some of the funcionality of the cgi module. I'm obviously in the wrong place. Later all ! Dave
Seems David Hastings got a rather cold welcome. I would simply have suggested that in general, these days, new modules aren't incorporated into the standard library before they've seen a lot of use "in the field"; and that the appropriate way for David to promote his module would be a webpage (maybe on SourceForge?) and announcements to comp.lang.python.announce. Another suggestion for David is to rename the module -- "CGIpm" seems a rather strange name for a module; the ".pm" in the original stands for "Perl Module" which obviously isn't appropriate for a Python translation. :-) David, success with your new module, and say hi to your Prof! --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
[David Hastings]
Once again, I'm sorry.
Stop apologizing -- it's embarrassing <wink>.
I hope there is a way that these e-mails can be removed from the web page. My intention wasn't to cause clutter.
It's not a problem.
Also, my intention was not to replace any modules. I just wanted to build on it I guess. We did actually use some of the funcionality of the cgi module. I'm obviously in the wrong place.
Not necessarily. While enthusiasm is rare on python-dev some weeks, that doesn't mean we all object to it <wink>. My advice is to read a bit first about how Python development gets done: http://www.python.org/dev/ You're already getting the sharp end of what the "Why Work on Python?" link there describes as The most important skill Python can teach is the delicate skill of working in a diverse group. I hope you stick around, and bring your module enhancements to a successful release!
[ OK. This is an old thread, but it's a new concern for me. I was researching to see what the current state of things was before making any public comments. I though I might as well provide this background to Dave Hastings, and also ask anyone involved in those earlier threads if there has been any more recent work on this that I might have missed. It looks like there was a flurry of discussion about this last fall but nothing seems to have come of it. ] On May 7, 2004, at 12:33 AM, Dave Hastings wrote:
[ ... ] The project that was decided upon, with the advice of the Professor, was to make a CGIpm python module that reflected CGI.pm for perl. We noticed that there is a current cgi module for python and even a cgipm module. These modules are very useful, but did not include all the functions that CGI.pm for perl provides. It turns out that my Professor really likes python and would have loved to see a CGIpm python module for python that was like the CGI.pm module for perl. [ ... ]
Dave, It's been a few years since I needed to do any cgi programming in Python. When I recently had to dig into it, I was SHOCKED to discover what a mess the current cgi module is. ( My second shock was when I looked at the source to try to figure things out, and discovered my name there at the top! ;-( It seems to be one of those things that just grew wild and didn't get much pruning. Mike McLay at NIST did the first version. I made some changes, but tried to keep backwards compatibility. Someone else came along and created a new set of interfaces, which both added and lost some functionality, but kept the older versions around for compatibility. ( I couldn't seem to get the new, improved version to do what I wanted, so I had to fall back on using the old compatability version! ) None of them seem very nice to use. Probably one of the few places where Python is 'uglier' than perl. And searching various Python archives, I find a history of similar complaints. Among the "Deferred, Abandoned, Withdrawn, and Rejected PEPs" is: PEP 222 (Dec 2000): http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0222.html which first proposes dumping the cgi module and starting over again:
The cgi.py module would be deprecated. (XXX A new module or package name hasn't been chosen yet: 'web'? 'cgilib'?)
... and a partial outline of a proposed interface. ( along with: Extended HTTP functionality and WEBDAV: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0268.html ) In the Sept. 2003 Python-Dev archives: See the thread that begins with Subject: "[Python-Dev] Improving the CGI module": http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2003-September/038128.html And the next month, a similar discussion picked up in the Web-SIG mailing list. See Web-SIG October 2003 Archives: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/web-sig/2003-October/thread.html See the many messages concerning "Form field dictionaries" , as well as several other threads in that months archive. As far as I can tell, all of those threads died out without any actual code being produced. However, they do give a good enumeration of what's wrong with the current cgi module and what's needed in a new module. Please let me know if there is any more current history I've missed in my search. ( I've been out of the python-dev loop for a while! ) I guess the Web-SIG is the best place for any further discussion. http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/web-sig Dave: I'm not sure that following CGI.pm is the best possible design, but I'ld like to see what you're planning. If nothing else is happening on this front, I may be able to take a swing at it when I return from my vacation. -- Steve Majewski
Steve Majewski writes:
As far as I can tell, all of those threads died out without any actual code being produced. However, they do give a good enumeration of what's wrong with the current cgi module and what's needed in a new module.
I guess the Web-SIG is the best place for any further discussion. http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/web-sig
As Steve notes, we've discussed this subject quite a bit. The next step is to form some more structured proposals, in the form of PEP submissions. These can then properly be considered on c.l.p. and python-dev. If folks want to contribute, they can review the past discussion, pick an area to write a PEP on (it would be polite to announce that on Web-SIG), write a proposal, and continue on with the process. This is starting to happen. Those on Web-SIG will see that Phillip Eby has submitted a pre-PEP on a Web Server Gateway Interface (WSGI), which is being discussed right now. [http://mail.python.org/pipermail/web-sig/2004-August/000518.html] Remember that having working code sometimes helps people evaluate a PEP proposal :-). Bill
participants (8)
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Bill Janssen -
Dave Hastings -
David Hastings
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Guido van Rossum -
Josiah Carlson -
Paul Prescod -
Steven Majewski -
Tim Peters