Mailman 3 Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 billion - Python-Dev

Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 billion

Victor Stinner

4 Jun 2018 4 Jun '18

8:03 a.m.

Hi, It's now official: Microsoft is acquiring GitHub. https://blog.github.com/2018-06-04-github-microsoft/ https://news.microsoft.com/2018/06/04/microsoft-to-acquire-github-for-7-5-bi... I copy the news here since Python rely more and more on GitHub. At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess that it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about anything. Victor

Show replies by date

Antoine Pitrou

4 Jun 4 Jun

8:40 a.m.

On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200 Victor Stinner wrote:

...

At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess that it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about anything.

It does spell uncertainty on the long term. While there is no need to worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about moving issues to Github. Regards Antoine.

Guido van Rossum

9:06 a.m.

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...

On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200 Victor Stinner wrote:

...
At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess that it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about anything.

It does spell uncertainty on the long term. While there is no need to worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about moving issues to Github.

I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about how it would make enough money to stay in business. -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

Antoine Pitrou

10:02 a.m.

That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the ecosystem. For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to promote (VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and improve integrations with other CI services? Regards Antoine. On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:06:28 -0700 Guido van Rossum wrote:

...

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...
On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200 Victor Stinner wrote:

...
At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess that it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about anything.

It does spell uncertainty on the long term. While there is no need to worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about moving issues to Github.

I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about how it would make enough money to stay in business.

Mariatta Wijaya

10:49 a.m.

I think we shouldn't be speculating or making guesses. If people are concerned with how Microsoft will manage GitHub, please talk to Microsoft or GitHub representative, and not gossip in python-dev. If there is actual news or announcement of how GitHub will change, and how it will affect our workflow, we'll discuss in core-workflow. Mariatta On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 10:02 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...

That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the ecosystem. For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to promote (VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and improve integrations with other CI services?

Regards

Antoine

ᐧ

Antoine Pitrou

11:06 a.m.

Le 04/06/2018 à 19:49, Mariatta Wijaya a écrit :

...

I think we shouldn't be speculating or making guesses. If people are concerned with how Microsoft will manage GitHub, please talk to Microsoft or GitHub representative, and not gossip in python-dev.

What would talking to a MS or GH representative achieve? Of course they won't tell you if their company intend to disturb the current service in a few years. 1) being mere employees they are forbidden to make such statements that could hurt the company's bottom line; 2) they probably don't know themselves, since representatives aren't the ones making decisions, and there's no reason they would be notified months or years in advance. So, if you talk to a representative, you will obviously get some reassuring PR speak (which might be sincere btw). All we are left with is to speculate on where the company's interests lie. It's not unknown for products or services to endure stark changes after their provider is being bought by another entity. Microsoft themselves did it (see Skype), and of course others did as well. Regards Antoine.

Ethan Furman

11:46 a.m.

On 06/04/2018 10:49 AM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

...

I think we shouldn't be speculating or making guesses.

We should have contingency plans and be prepared. More than one bought-out competitor has simply disappeared, or been hamstrung in its effectiveness. -- ~Ethan~

Ben Finney

11:57 a.m.

Ethan Furman writes:

...

On 06/04/2018 10:49 AM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

...
I think we shouldn't be speculating or making guesses.

We should have contingency plans and be prepared. More than one bought-out competitor has simply disappeared, or been hamstrung in its effectiveness.

Yes. So, because such contingency plans take quite some time to prepare, now *is* the time to be talking about it. -- \ “There's a certain part of the contented majority who love | `\ anybody who is worth a billion dollars.” —John Kenneth | _o__) Galbraith, 1992-05-23 | Ben Finney

Ivan Pozdeev

1:28 p.m.

On 04.06.2018 21:46, Ethan Furman wrote:

...

On 06/04/2018 10:49 AM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

...
I think we shouldn't be speculating or making guesses.

We should have contingency plans and be prepared. More than one bought-out competitor has simply disappeared, or been hamstrung in its effectiveness.

Actually, since M$ has closely integrated Python into VS, I'm expecting Guido to receive an acquisition offer next!

...

-- ~Ethan~

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-- Regards, Ivan

M.-A. Lemburg

5 Jun 5 Jun

4:54 a.m.

Something that may change is the way they treat Github accounts, after all, MS is very much a sales driven company. But then there's always the possibility to move to Gitlab as alternative (hosted or run on PSF VMs), so I would worry too much. Do note, however, that the value in Github is not so much with the products they have, but with the data. Their databases know more about IT developer than anyone else and given that Github is put under the AI umbrella in MS should tell us something :-) On 04.06.2018 19:02, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...

That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the ecosystem. For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to promote (VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and improve integrations with other CI services?

Regards

Antoine.

On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:06:28 -0700 Guido van Rossum wrote:

...
On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...
On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200 Victor Stinner wrote:

...
At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess that it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about anything.

It does spell uncertainty on the long term. While there is no need to worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about moving issues to Github.

I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about how it would make enough money to stay in business.

_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/mal%40egenix.com

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jun 05 2018)

...

...
...
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

Martin Gainty

7:28 a.m.

New subject: Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

who owns the Data hosted on Github? Github Author? Microsoft? Martin ______________________________________________ ________________________________ From: Python-Dev on behalf of M.-A. Lemburg Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 7:54 AM To: Antoine Pitrou; python-dev@python.org Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 billion Something that may change is the way they treat Github accounts, after all, MS is very much a sales driven company. But then there's always the possibility to move to Gitlab as alternative (hosted or run on PSF VMs), so I would worry too much. Do note, however, that the value in Github is not so much with the products they have, but with the data. Their databases know more about IT developer than anyone else and given that Github is put under the AI umbrella in MS should tell us something :-) On 04.06.2018 19:02, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...

That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the ecosystem. For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to promote (VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and improve integrations with other CI services?

Regards

Antoine.

On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:06:28 -0700 Guido van Rossum wrote:

...
On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...
On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200 Victor Stinner wrote:

...
At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess that it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about anything.

It does spell uncertainty on the long term. While there is no need to worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about moving issues to Github.

I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about how it would make enough money to stay in business.

_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev

Python-Dev Info Pagehttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev mail.python.org Do not post general Python questions to this list. For help with Python please see the Python help page.. On this list the key Python developers discuss the future of the language and its implementation.

...

Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/mal%40egenix.com

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jun 05 2018)

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Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs ::: eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/ _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/mgainty%40hotmail.com

Ivan Pozdeev

7:01 p.m.

New subject: Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

On 05.06.2018 17:28, Martin Gainty wrote:

...

who owns the Data hosted on Github?

Github Author? Microsoft?

Martin https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/#d-user-generated-c... :

"/You own content you create, but you allow us certain rights to it, so that we can display and share the content you post. You still have control over your content, and responsibility for it, and the rights you grant us are limited to those we need to provide the service. We have the right to remove content or close Accounts if we need to."/

...

------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* Python-Dev on behalf of M.-A. Lemburg *Sent:* Tuesday, June 5, 2018 7:54 AM *To:* Antoine Pitrou; python-dev@python.org *Subject:* Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 billion Something that may change is the way they treat Github accounts, after all, MS is very much a sales driven company.

But then there's always the possibility to move to Gitlab as alternative (hosted or run on PSF VMs), so I would worry too much.

Do note, however, that the value in Github is not so much with the products they have, but with the data. Their databases know more about IT developer than anyone else and given that Github is put under the AI umbrella in MS should tell us something :-)

On 04.06.2018 19:02, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...
That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the ecosystem. For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to promote (VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and improve integrations with other CI services?

Regards

Antoine.

On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:06:28 -0700 Guido van Rossum wrote:

...
On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou

...
...
...
On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200 Victor Stinner wrote:

...
At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess

wrote: that

...
...
...
...
it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about anything.

It does spell uncertainty on the long term. While there is no need to worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about moving issues to Github.

I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about how it would make enough money to stay in business.

_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Python-Dev Info Page https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev mail.python.org Do not post general Python questions to this list. For help with Python please see the Python help page.. On this list the key Python developers discuss the future of the language and its implementation.

...
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/mal%40egenix.com

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jun 05 2018)

...
...
...
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/ http://zope.egenix.com/

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/ http://www.malemburg.com/

_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/mgainty%40hotmail.com

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-- Regards, Ivan

Alex Walters

10:28 p.m.

New subject: Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

...

-----Original Message----- From: Python-Dev On Behalf Of Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 10:01 PM To: python-dev@python.org Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

On 05.06.2018 17:28, Martin Gainty wrote: who owns the Data hosted on Github?

Github Author? Microsoft?

Martin https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/#d-user- generated-content :

"You own content you create, but you allow us certain rights to it, so

...

can display and share the content you post. You still have control over your content, and responsibility for it, and the rights you grant us are

that we limited to

...

those we need to provide the service. We have the right to remove content or close Accounts if we need to."

And this is not likely to change under Microsoft. CodePlex had similar language, as does BitBucket, GitLab, and pretty much any service that hosts creative content that isnt a social network (and even then, some of them do too.)

...

________________________________________ From: Python-Dev on behalf of M.-A. Lemburg Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 7:54 AM To: Antoine Pitrou; python-dev@python.org Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 billion

Something that may change is the way they treat Github accounts, after all, MS is very much a sales driven company.

But then there's always the possibility to move to Gitlab as alternative (hosted or run on PSF VMs), so I would worry too much.

Do note, however, that the value in Github is not so much with the products they have, but with the data. Their databases know more about IT developer than anyone else and given that Github is put under the AI umbrella in MS should tell us something :-)

On 04.06.2018 19:02, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...
That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the

...
For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to

ecosystem. promote

...
(VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and improve integrations with other CI services?

Regards

Antoine.

On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:06:28 -0700 Guido van Rossum wrote:

...
On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...
On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200 Victor Stinner wrote:

...
At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just

guess that

...
...
it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about anything.

It does spell uncertainty on the long term. While there is no need to worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about moving issues to Github.

I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about how it would make enough money to stay in business.

...
Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Python- Dev Info Page mail.pyth on.org Do not

______________________________________________ _ post general Python questions to this list. For help with Python please see the Python help page.. On this list the key Python developer s discuss the future of the language and its implemen tation.

...
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python- dev/mal%40egenix.com

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jun 05 2018)

...
...
...
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

__________________________

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor- Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc- Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/

______________________________________________ _ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python- dev/mgainty%40hotmail.com

______________________________________________ _ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python- dev/vano%40mail.mipt.ru

-- Regards, Ivan

Chris Jerdonek

6 Jun 6 Jun

5:59 p.m.

New subject: Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 7:03 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < python-dev@python.org> wrote:

...

On 05.06.2018 17:28, Martin Gainty wrote:

who owns the Data hosted on Github?

Github Author? Microsoft?

Martin

https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/#d-user-generated-c... :

"*You own content you create, but you allow us certain rights to it, so that we can display and share the content you post. You still have control over your content, and responsibility for it, and the rights you grant us are limited to those we need to provide the service.*

Is the “service” they provide (and what it needs) allowed to change over time, so that the rights granted can expand? The definition of “service” in their document is— 1. The “Service” refers to the applications, software, products, and services provided by GitHub. —Chris * We have the right to remove content or close Accounts if we need to."*

...

------------------------------ *From:* Python-Dev on behalf of M.-A. Lemburg *Sent:* Tuesday, June 5, 2018 7:54 AM *To:* Antoine Pitrou; python-dev@python.org *Subject:* Re: [Python-Dev] Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 billion

Something that may change is the way they treat Github accounts, after all, MS is very much a sales driven company.

But then there's always the possibility to move to Gitlab as alternative (hosted or run on PSF VMs), so I would worry too much.

Do note, however, that the value in Github is not so much with the products they have, but with the data. Their databases know more about IT developer than anyone else and given that Github is put under the AI umbrella in MS should tell us something :-)

On 04.06.2018 19:02, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

...
That's true, but Microsoft has a lot of stakes in the ecosystem. For example, since it has its own CI service that it tries to promote (VSTS), is it in Microsoft's best interest to polish and improve integrations with other CI services?

Regards

Antoine.

On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 09:06:28 -0700 Guido van Rossum wrote:

...
On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Antoine Pitrou

...
...
...
On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:03:27 +0200 Victor Stinner wrote:

...
At this point, I have no opinion about the event :-) I just guess that it should make GitHub more sustainable since Microsoft is a big company with money and interest in GitHub. I'm also confident that nothing will change soon. IMHO there is no need to worry about anything.

It does spell uncertainty on the long term. While there is no need to worry for now, I think it gives a different colour to the debate about moving issues to Github.

I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about

how it

...
would make enough money to stay in business.

_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Python-Dev Info Page https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev mail.python.org Do not post general Python questions to this list. For help with Python

wrote: please see the Python help page.. On this list the key Python developers discuss the future of the language and its implementation.

...
Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/mal%40egenix.com

-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jun 05 2018)

...
...
...
Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ http://www.malemburg.com/

_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/mgainty%40hotmail.com

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-- Regards, Ivan

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Steven D'Aprano

9:41 p.m.

New subject: Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

On Wed, Jun 06, 2018 at 05:59:17PM -0700, Chris Jerdonek wrote:

...

Is the “service” they provide (and what it needs) allowed to change over time, so that the rights granted can expand?

Of course it can change. And they might not even need to give us notice. But that's no different from any other service provider, including your ISP, your phone provider, your electricity provider, etc. If we're to be concerned about changes to terms and conditions, we should be equally concerned about Google, Apple, Amazon, Red Hat, Oracle etc. We shouldn't be uniquely or especially concerned just because Microsoft has purchased Github. Nothing has changed. Github (the old Github, before being sold) were not "the Good Guys", and Microsoft is not "the Bad Guys". Github were a commercial entity, run by venture capitalists only in it for the money, with a brogrammer culture that was (allegedly) highly toxic to women. If Github didn't try to make a grab for their users' content, it was because they made a commercial decision that stealing the IP for a thousand versions of "leftpad" for Node.js was not worth the harm they would do to their business, not because they're nice guys who wouldn't do that. https://medium.com/@caspervonb/the-internet-is-at-the-mercy-of-a-handful-of-... I know that suspicion and fear of Microsoft's bona fides is a long running tradition in FOSS circles, but Microsoft is subject to the same sorts of commercial realities as any other corporation: there is a limit to how evil they can be for the LOLs and still stay in business. They are no more likely to grab users' content than Github were, and for the same reasons. Actually, probably LESS likely. The sort of companies who are Microsoft's important customers, the ones with deep pockets willing to pay for services like Github's, are if anything even more cognisant of the value and importance of so-called Intellectual Property than the average FOSS user, and far more likely to be defensive over some hosting company trying to claim rights to their IP. (Personally, I'm more concerned about MS trying to become another Google, profiling us -- all the better to sell our personal data -- by matching up our Github identies with everything we do on the internet. But again, that's not unique to Microsoft. Every second website, these days, wants to follow your every click and watch everything you do. But that's a rant for another day.) -- Steve

Chris Barker - NOAA Federal

7 Jun 7 Jun

10:33 a.m.

New subject: Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

...

We shouldn't be uniquely or especially concerned just because Microsoft has purchased Github. Nothing has changed.

Exactly — but this change HAS made people think about an issue that we should have already been thinking about. At the end of the day, anyone, or any project, would be well served by having a plan for potential loss of valuable data. And the no brainer on that is : don’t have only one copy in one place. That’s why my family photos are on my hard drive, and a backup drive, and an online backup service. My house could burn down, so I don’t want everything there. The backup service could change its conditions, go out of business, or simply have a technical failure — so I don’t want everything there, either. Any service could change or fail. Period. So we shouldn’t want valuable information about Python development only in gitHub. I don’t know how hard it is to backup / mirror an entire repo — but it sure seems like a good idea. -CHB

Chris Angelico

11:24 a.m.

New subject: Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 3:33 AM, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal via Python-Dev wrote:

...

Any service could change or fail. Period.

So we shouldn’t want valuable information about Python development only in gitHub.

I don’t know how hard it is to backup / mirror an entire repo — but it sure seems like a good idea.

There are two separate concerns here: 1) How do we get a full copy of all of CPython and its change history? 2) How do we get all the non-code content - issues, pull requests, comments? The first one is trivially easy. *Everyone* who has a clone of the repository [1] has a full copy of the code and all history, updated every time 'git pull' is run. The second one depends on GitHub's exporting facilities; but it also depends on a definition of what's important. Maybe the PSF doesn't care if people's comments at the bottoms of commits are lost (not to be confused with commit messages themselves, which are part of the repo proper), so it wouldn't matter if they're lost. Or maybe it's important to have the contents of such commits, but it's okay to credit them to an email address rather than linking to an actual username. Or whatever. Unlike with the code/history repo, an imperfect export is still of partial value. ChrisA [1] Barring shallow clones, but most people don't do those

Mariatta Wijaya

12 Jun 12 Jun

11:47 a.m.

New subject: Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

Backing up GitHub data has been brought up since the time we migrated to GitHub, and being tracked here: https://github.com/pytho n/core-workflow/issues/20 TL;DR We'll be using GitHub's new Migrations API https://developer.github.com/v3/migrations/orgs/ to download archived GitHub data of CPython. Ernest is helping us get set up with daily backups of CPython repo to be stored within The PSF's infrastructure. Mariatta On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:

...

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 3:33 AM, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal via Python-Dev wrote:

...
Any service could change or fail. Period.

So we shouldn’t want valuable information about Python development only in gitHub.

I don’t know how hard it is to backup / mirror an entire repo — but it sure seems like a good idea.

There are two separate concerns here:

1) How do we get a full copy of all of CPython and its change history?

2) How do we get all the non-code content - issues, pull requests, comments?

The first one is trivially easy. *Everyone* who has a clone of the repository [1] has a full copy of the code and all history, updated every time 'git pull' is run.

The second one depends on GitHub's exporting facilities; but it also depends on a definition of what's important. Maybe the PSF doesn't care if people's comments at the bottoms of commits are lost (not to be confused with commit messages themselves, which are part of the repo proper), so it wouldn't matter if they're lost. Or maybe it's important to have the contents of such commits, but it's okay to credit them to an email address rather than linking to an actual username. Or whatever. Unlike with the code/history repo, an imperfect export is still of partial value.

ChrisA

[1] Barring shallow clones, but most people don't do those _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/ mariatta.wijaya%40gmail.com

ᐧ

Nick Coghlan

13 Jun 13 Jun

6:31 a.m.

New subject: Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 b

On 13 June 2018 at 04:47, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:

...

Backing up GitHub data has been brought up since the time we migrated to GitHub, and being tracked here: https://github.com/pytho n/core-workflow/issues/20

TL;DR We'll be using GitHub's new Migrations API https://developer.github.com/v3/migrations/orgs/ to download archived GitHub data of CPython. Ernest is helping us get set up with daily backups of CPython repo to be stored within The PSF's infrastructure.

Nice! Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia

Matěj Cepl

4 Jun 4 Jun

10:25 a.m.

On 2018-06-04, 16:06 GMT, Guido van Rossum wrote:

...

I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about how it would make enough money to stay in business.

Beacuse Microsoft is known to keep a money loosing venture around forever? Best, Matěj -- https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl@ceplovi.cz GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 To err is human, to purr feline.

Steven D'Aprano

4:38 p.m.

On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 07:25:49PM +0200, Matěj Cepl wrote:

...

On 2018-06-04, 16:06 GMT, Guido van Rossum wrote:

...
I don't see how this *increases* the uncertainty. Surely if GitHub had remained independent there would have been be similar concerns about how it would make enough money to stay in business.

Beacuse Microsoft is known to keep a money loosing venture around forever?

No, but Guido is right: neither is anyone else. In that regard, Microsoft is probably *more* likely to keep pumping money into a failing business if it gives them a strategic advantage, compared to other investors with no long-term strategy other than "get aquired by Google/Microsoft/Oracle/Apple". But on the other hand, Microsoft (or at least the bad old Microsoft of Bill Gates' days) has a long history of "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" as policy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish (Not that Microsoft is the only big tech company that does/did this.) Anyway, this is just all speculation at this point. In the short term, nothing changes, and it is too early to tell how it changes the long term. -- Steve

Matěj Cepl

5 Jun 5 Jun

6:10 a.m.

On 2018-06-04, 23:38 GMT, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

...

No, but Guido is right: neither is anyone else.

In that regard, Microsoft is probably *more* likely to keep pumping money into a failing business if it gives them a strategic advantage, compared to other investors with no long-term strategy other than "get aquired by Google/Microsoft/Oracle/Apple".

Let me just to say here, that gitlab.com has export of repository together with all metadata. Just saying. Matěj -- https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl@ceplovi.cz GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 Oh, to be young, and to feel love’s keen sting. -- Albus Dumbledore

Miro Hrončok

7:11 a.m.

On 5.6.2018 15:10, Matěj Cepl wrote:

...

On 2018-06-04, 23:38 GMT, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

...
No, but Guido is right: neither is anyone else.

In that regard, Microsoft is probably *more* likely to keep pumping money into a failing business if it gives them a strategic advantage, compared to other investors with no long-term strategy other than "get aquired by Google/Microsoft/Oracle/Apple".

Let me just to say here, that gitlab.com has export of repository together with all metadata. Just saying.

GitHub has: https://developer.github.com/changes/2018-05-24-user-migration-api/ but I'm not sure what exactly is there. -- Miro Hrončok -- Phone: +420777974800 IRC: mhroncok

Nick Coghlan

8:03 a.m.

On 5 June 2018 at 23:10, Matěj Cepl wrote:

...

On 2018-06-04, 23:38 GMT, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

...
No, but Guido is right: neither is anyone else.

In that regard, Microsoft is probably *more* likely to keep pumping money into a failing business if it gives them a strategic advantage, compared to other investors with no long-term strategy other than "get aquired by Google/Microsoft/Oracle/Apple".

Let me just to say here, that gitlab.com has export of repository together with all metadata. Just saying.

I was actually looking into this recently to see if the repository import feature could be used to run a regularly updated repository mirror that included all issues and PR comments in addition to the code, and noticed that one of the things that GitLab really requires to create a high quality export is for folks to have linked their GitLab instance accounts with their GitHub ones - if you don't already have that account mapping in place, then the import currently loses the ability to link users correctly with their comments and commits (We have a partial mapping due to folks adding their account names to bugs.python.org for CLA signing purposes, but not in a form that GitLab could actually use, since they need the API access authorisation). That said, I personally don't think this changes much about our relationship with GitHub, except for the fact that we're now dealing with a large publicly traded multinational with relatively transparent financial reports rather than a smallish privately held company that was only financially accountable to the venture capitalists backing it. I'm more confident in my ability to predict Microsoft's business incentives based on the prevailing technology landscape than I am in my ability to predict the actions of a VC firm like Andreesen Horowitz :) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia

Matěj Cepl

6 Jun 6 Jun

1:55 a.m.

On 2018-06-05, 15:03 GMT, Nick Coghlan wrote:

...

I was actually looking into this recently to see if the repository import feature could be used to run a regularly updated repository mirror that included all issues and PR comments in addition to the code,

Good, thank you very much. I didn’t, so I just worked out of the PR materials and documentation on their side. I am glad somebody did.

...

I'm more confident in my ability to predict Microsoft's business incentives based on the prevailing technology landscape than I am in my ability to predict the actions of a VC firm like Andreesen Horowitz :)

Perhaps. I still would be more comfortable, if we were thinking from time to time about alternatives in case Microsoft (or somebody else) returns to The Bad Old Ways. I hope it won't happen, but it might. Best, Matěj -- https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl@ceplovi.cz GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 May integrity and uprightness preserve me, for I wait for you. -- Psalm 25:21 ESV

Brett Cannon

11:24 a.m.

On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 at 02:09 Matěj Cepl wrote:

...

On 2018-06-05, 15:03 GMT, Nick Coghlan wrote:

...
I was actually looking into this recently to see if the repository import feature could be used to run a regularly updated repository mirror that included all issues and PR comments in addition to the code,

Good, thank you very much. I didn’t, so I just worked out of the PR materials and documentation on their side. I am glad somebody did.

...
I'm more confident in my ability to predict Microsoft's business incentives based on the prevailing technology landscape than I am in my ability to predict the actions of a VC firm like Andreesen Horowitz :)

Perhaps. I still would be more comfortable, if we were thinking from time to time about alternatives in case Microsoft (or somebody else) returns to The Bad Old Ways. I hope it won't happen, but it might.

Backing up the git repo is not terribly troublesome because you just need to to it regularly by cron job. Plus since git is distributed we have copies of that repo all over the place and you can verify integrity through the commit hashes, so even without an official backup we have a ton of unofficial backups. :) As for the PR data, that could be done by recording every webhook event from our repo if someone wanted to. Then you could reconstruct things by essentially replaying the log of events. There are also probably more structured ways to do it as well if people cared. But the key thing is someone has to take the time and effort to set something up. I'm personally not planning to put in the effort since I think there's a massively bigger chance we will switch hosts again rather than GitHub deciding to shut off data access with no data export feature or lead time such that we have to craft our own solution and we can't do it fast enough to prevent the loss of data (and I don't think doing this ahead of time for an eventual migration is worth it either as any platform we move to might have its own migration support, etc.). IOW I ain't worried, but I think everyone assumed that for me. :)

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Alex Walters
Antoine Pitrou
Antoine Pitrou
Ben Finney
Brett Cannon
Chris Angelico
Chris Barker - NOAA Federal
Chris Jerdonek
Ethan Furman
Guido van Rossum
Ivan Pozdeev
M.-A. Lemburg
Mariatta Wijaya
Martin Gainty
Matěj Cepl
Miro Hrončok
Nick Coghlan
Steven D'Aprano
Victor Stinner

Microsoft to acquire GitHub for $7.5 billion

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