Are you ready for Mercurial migration?
To shed some light on the readiness of Python community for the switch I've opened public Google Wave. Please add your opinion if you can and send this link to other contributors you may know: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+G12NYQbDA -- anatoly t.
Hello Anatoly I’m thankful that you give time and energy to the issues raised by the migration. As a minor contributor, I’m eager for the migration, and I also find healthy that there is discussion about these things. However, I think that there is too much discussion right now. I offer some facts and opinions. 1) The PEP is accepted. Python is migrating to Mercurial and closing the Subversion repository after lengthy discussion and rounds of feedback. This is beating a dead horse. 2) Python mailing lists are effective, open to anyone with an email address, and work with all Web and email clients. Google Wave requires an account, JavaScript, and learning a new thing. That doesn’t help a situation where we already lack people and time. 2a) Old tools are not always bad. (Emails works.) 2b) New tools can be helpful, but do not magically solve issues. I can’t see python-dev moving to Trac or Wave in the coming years, so fighting for them is not productive. In a community, it’s important to assume that people have reasons for their choices, research before jumping to conclusions (e.g. hg uses the parent changeset ID too to compute the ID of a changeset, so the current mirror and the new, clean official repo will be incompatible), and say that everything sucks. To sum up my opinion: The Mercurial migration will proceed as explained in the PEP, there are still some areas to discuss, the transition will be delayed if there’s no committer willing to lead the effort. Debating agreed issues does not help solving open issues. Regards
Éric, you letter is discouraging. This is not for coredevs, who already "decided" - it for the rest of the world. I should clarify it in the first place, but I would like to avoid lengthy debates outside of the Wave.
As a minor contributor, I’m eager for the migration,
It is not the question about do you like it or not. It is the question "Are You ready?" That means: Have you tried Mercurial? Do you understand how it works? Do you have a workflow ready and tested to start commiting right away? or Do you plan to read ~100 page long hginit.com tutorial after *it happens? -- anatoly
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:16, anatoly techtonik <techtonik@gmail.com> wrote:
It is not the question about do you like it or not. It is the question
"Are You ready?"
That means: Have you tried Mercurial?
Yes.
Do you understand how it works?
Yes.
Do you have a workflow ready and tested to start commiting right away?
My mercurial experience is much less than that of others around here and with much smaller teams, but I'm comfortable with a few workflows and am open to learn more.
or Do you plan to read ~100 page long hginit.com tutorial after *it happens?
That tutorial is not ~100 pages. It's actually a good tutorial. Feel free to copy that into Google Wave.
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you plan to read ~100 page long hginit.com tutorial after *it happens?
That tutorial is not ~100 pages. It's actually a good tutorial.
That's why I posted it here, but it still >80 pages in my browser.
Feel free to copy that into Google Wave.
Thanks for feedback. It appears that I overestimated the ubiquitousness of Google Wave. It already has some valuable feedback and I would really prefer to carry out all discussions there. In particular Gnome project members estimated as very important the point of publishing instructions about how to use new DVCS workflow _before_ migration. We don't have this for the moment. -- anatoly t.
anatoly techtonik wrote:
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Brian Curtin <brian.curtin@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you plan to read ~100 page long hginit.com tutorial after *it happens? That tutorial is not ~100 pages. It's actually a good tutorial.
That's why I posted it here, but it still >80 pages in my browser.
Feel free to copy that into Google Wave.
Thanks for feedback. It appears that I overestimated the ubiquitousness of Google Wave. It already has some valuable feedback and I would really prefer to carry out all discussions there.
In particular Gnome project members estimated as very important the point of publishing instructions about how to use new DVCS workflow _before_ migration. We don't have this for the moment.
My own experience (I was pretty "meh" about it when people were tweeting "tweet me for an invite to the wave") is that you have to persist, and learn different habits for each set of collaborators. I suppose I should approve of it on account of how it improves geek social skills. If the wave were to result in good documentation about how to *get* ready that would be an amazingly useful contribution. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010 http://djangocon.us/ See Python Video! http://python.mirocommunity.org/ Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
Steve Holden writes:
If the wave were to result in good documentation about how to *get* ready that would be an amazingly useful contribution.
I'm a coauthor of PEP 374 and of http://emacswiki.org/BzrForEmacsDevs. I think that I can have a document adapted from the Python dev FAQ, possibly integrating parts of BzrForEmacsDevs (style, ideas, not literal commands of course -- sorry, Barry<wink>) and the hginit.com tutorial (assuming it's free enough, will check) by July 21. If anybody thinks they'd do a better job, or simply that I'm not appropriate, let me know (I have a thick skin and plenty of other work to do :-). If it sounds like a good idea, let me know where and how to submit (patch to dev FAQ on the tracker is the default). Of course, collaborators welcome, mail me off list.
anatoly techtonik <techtonik@gmail.com> writes:
Thanks for feedback. It appears that I overestimated the ubiquitousness of Google Wave. It already has some valuable feedback and I would really prefer to carry out all discussions there.
And yet it excludes anyone who doesn't want an account with a specific organisation. A barrier that is not present for discussions in this forum. -- \ Lucifer: “Just sign the Contract, sir, and the Piano is yours.” | `\ Ray: “Sheesh! This is long! Mind if I sign it now and read it | _o__) later?” —http://www.achewood.com/ | Ben Finney
That tutorial is not ~100 pages. It's actually a good tutorial. That's why I posted it here, but it still >80 pages in my browser.
Perhaps you meant 80 screens, or a different tutorial. hginit is a short tutorial useful for Subversion users who don’t have the time to read the hgbook. Regards
Éric, you letter is discouraging. That’s the right term. I wanted to discourage you from fruitless endeavors.
This is not for coredevs, who already "decided" - it for the rest of the world. I don’t think there is a discrepancy between the core devs that want to keep the power and do what they please, and the community that is never consulted and unable to express itself. I believe that the core devs are the first circle of the community and that they strive to make open technical dicussions and reach decisions for the good of everyone. I find them open and kind, even if sometimes necessarily stern (e.g. when answering the same question for the umpteenth time).
I should clarify it in the first place, but I would like to avoid lengthy debates outside of the Wave. And I would like to keep Python-related discussions on open official fora that have been working for decades.
As a minor contributor, I’m eager for the migration, It is not the question about do you like it or not. That paragraph was just me trying to be positive before expressing my negative comments.
It is the question "Are You ready?" That means: Have you tried Mercurial? Yes.
Do you understand how it works? Yes.
Do you have a workflow ready and tested to start commiting right away? Yes. I have a handful of workflows in my belt to address different needs (one-shot typo fix, feature development, local editions, etc.)
Do you plan to read ~100 page long hginit.com tutorial after *it happens? Done. I have read the hg book, information on the wiki, made a lot of tests, read the PEPs, read the short hginit tutorial, and am willing to review Python-centered docs.
Regards
Am 02.07.2010 16:29, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
To shed some light on the readiness of Python community for the switch I've opened public Google Wave. Please add your opinion if you can and send this link to other contributors you may know:
tl;dr: I failed forcing my notions upon the participants in one particular medium, let's switch to another and try again. Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out.
On Fri, 2 Jul 2010 17:29:02 +0300 anatoly techtonik <techtonik@gmail.com> wrote:
To shed some light on the readiness of Python community for the switch I've opened public Google Wave. Please add your opinion if you can and send this link to other contributors you may know:
Am I the only one to think this should really stop? By "this", I mean the flow of complaints and dubious "recommendations" you send here and on the bug tracker. We are volunteers, we don't need a boss, especially not one who prefers arguing about workflow rather than addressing concrete issues. I'm not sure if other people are finding those (Anatoly's) messages constructive and insightful. To me it looks like they are wasting the aggregate signal to noise ratio. Antoine.
Antoine, I value you contribution to `hgsvn` project, and this thread is not a personal accusation of anybody in making proper transition - please understand that I would like to see the opinion of people who preferred not to be involved in lengthy discussions. For personal pretensions against me - please start a new thread and no hijack. I am trying to solve the same problem as you are - make the Mercurial migration, but make it as painless as possible. On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> wrote:
To shed some light on the readiness of Python community for the switch I've opened public Google Wave. Please add your opinion if you can and send this link to other contributors you may know:
Am I the only one to think this should really stop?
By "this", I mean the flow of complaints and dubious "recommendations" you send here and on the bug tracker. We are volunteers, we don't need a boss, especially not one who prefers arguing about workflow rather than addressing concrete issues.
I'm not sure if other people are finding those (Anatoly's) messages constructive and insightful. To me it looks like they are wasting the aggregate signal to noise ratio.
Antoine.
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/techtonik%40gmail.com
Perhaps at this stage you could actually start producing, then, and use up a bit less bandwidth on this channel (on this matter, at least) until you have results to report? regards Steve anatoly techtonik wrote:
Antoine, I value you contribution to `hgsvn` project, and this thread is not a personal accusation of anybody in making proper transition - please understand that I would like to see the opinion of people who preferred not to be involved in lengthy discussions. For personal pretensions against me - please start a new thread and no hijack.
I am trying to solve the same problem as you are - make the Mercurial migration, but make it as painless as possible.
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> wrote:
To shed some light on the readiness of Python community for the switch I've opened public Google Wave. Please add your opinion if you can and send this link to other contributors you may know: Am I the only one to think this should really stop?
By "this", I mean the flow of complaints and dubious "recommendations" you send here and on the bug tracker. We are volunteers, we don't need a boss, especially not one who prefers arguing about workflow rather than addressing concrete issues.
I'm not sure if other people are finding those (Anatoly's) messages constructive and insightful. To me it looks like they are wasting the aggregate signal to noise ratio.
Antoine.
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/techtonik%40gmail.com
-- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010 http://djangocon.us/ See Python Video! http://python.mirocommunity.org/ Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 08:49, anatoly techtonik <techtonik@gmail.com> wrote:
Antoine, I value you contribution to `hgsvn` project, and this thread is not a personal accusation of anybody in making proper transition - please understand that I would like to see the opinion of people who preferred not to be involved in lengthy discussions.
People who choose not to be involved in a lengthy discussion on a topic and thus most likely be ill-informed should not participate and expect to be taken seriously. Making statements without having some decent amount of knowledge on the subject just leads to bad decisions. In other words, I don't care about the opinion of uninformed individuals (and I doubt anyone else does either) so you trying to bring them into this is not helping matters. This transition has been in the works since roughly December 2008 when I started evaluating whether moving to a DVCS was beneficial. That has been in the open either through PEPs or this mailing list, even a lightning talk at PyCon 2009. When Dirkjan took on the task (all by himself) to handle the transition that discussion has stayed public, mostly through emails on python-dev. This has been vetted as publicly as possible. So people who wanted to participate when decisions were being made could have. But having you come in here and say that this needs to be discussed again is at least unproductive, if not insulting. This transition will happen once a proper conversion is up and has been pounded on, as Martin has suggested. And the proper documentation will be in place before we hit the switch and turn off svn. Yes, it has been slow, but considering a single individual has been handling all technical aspects it is to be expected. And in case I have not said it publicly, I thank Dirkjan for sticking with this after all this time.
For personal pretensions against me - please start a new thread and no hijack.
Yes hijack. In case you have not noticed practically every reply on this email thread has said "stop stirring up trouble and try to help." All you are doing is muckraking at this point. If you want to help, be constructive instead of trying to drag this transition out and throw up barriers. We are beyond the point of bringing up alternatives to how to handle this. Now we just need manpower to fix the final details so we can get this finished. Letting this thread just go on is not helping anyone, so we are all trying to kill it before any more people waste their time with that wave of yours.
I am trying to solve the same problem as you are - make the Mercurial migration, but make it as painless as possible.
Then help! Fix the hgsubversion bug that is blocking the transition. Port the dev FAQ over to Mercurial if you don't want to code. Do something constructive! But trying to cause us to change plans that have been moving forward on the scale of years suddenly is not helping make the transition any less painless. All you are doing is pissing people off and causing us to have to waste our time telling you to stop doing what you are doing. To be totally frank, Anatoly, you need to contribute in a positive way and without sounding demanding. Maybe you don't mean to sound demanding, but your emails sometimes come off like you think we should listen to all of your ideas with no backing of experience here or enough evidence to support your ideas. And then rehashing old decisions like this transition, arguing for svn bridges and the like, isn't helping improve people's perception of you. It's gotten to the point where I don't want to read your emails. If you keep up with the way you are interacting with people on this list I for one will add you to my python-dev blacklist filter (which currently consists of a single person, so it is not easy to get put on that list) so that I don't feel angry or frustrated every time I see an email from you. -Brett
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> wrote:
To shed some light on the readiness of Python community for the switch I've opened public Google Wave. Please add your opinion if you can and send this link to other contributors you may know:
Am I the only one to think this should really stop?
By "this", I mean the flow of complaints and dubious "recommendations" you send here and on the bug tracker. We are volunteers, we don't need a boss, especially not one who prefers arguing about workflow rather than addressing concrete issues.
I'm not sure if other people are finding those (Anatoly's) messages constructive and insightful. To me it looks like they are wasting the aggregate signal to noise ratio.
Antoine.
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/techtonik%40gmail.com
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/brett%40python.org
Am 02.07.2010 17:08, schrieb Antoine Pitrou:
On Fri, 2 Jul 2010 17:29:02 +0300 anatoly techtonik <techtonik@gmail.com> wrote:
To shed some light on the readiness of Python community for the switch I've opened public Google Wave. Please add your opinion if you can and send this link to other contributors you may know:
Am I the only one to think this should really stop?
You are certainly not alone. However, I've given up responding to anatoly techtonik, knowing that it will be futile, and a waste of time. Regards, Martin
participants (10)
-
"Martin v. Löwis" -
anatoly techtonik -
Antoine Pitrou -
Ben Finney -
Brett Cannon -
Brian Curtin -
Georg Brandl -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Steve Holden -
Éric Araujo