At 10:08 PM 3/20/2008 +0000, glyph@divmod.com wrote (off-list):

No, but in no situation, except one (where I was extremely pressed for time) was I actually attempting to use setuptools to use any of its features. My experience of it is: "If a project uses distutils or apt, installation probably works. If it uses setuptools, it probably throws a traceback or a wall of text explaining why my environment is inadequate to perform the installation." Other people chose to use it and in so doing broke my setup. Manually copying a few files in these cases was a _lot_ easier than attempting to diagnose and repair software that I didn't even want to use.

I am not interesting in packaging or distribution. Far from it: I run all of my software out of an SVN checkout and I _detest_ being involved in discussions of deployment or installation. ... However, the general message of the negative subjective experience I have had while using setuptools is not FUD. It's an accurate portrayal of a great deal of frustration. setuptools has, to this date, not solved a single problem for *me*, personally or professionally, but it has caused many. distutils, despite its many flaws, has actually solved quite a few.

Actually, this information is VERY helpful. It makes it blindingly obvious to me now that the difference between loving and hating setuptools is whether you're *intentionally* using it, or whether it shows up in your ecosystem uninvited. It also makes the difference in whether you get involved: with no investment in the tool itself, you have minimal motivation to RTFM, ask questions, or fix bugs. And when people in this scenario *do* communicate to me or the distutils-sig, they are much more likely to be impatient and hostile, and more likely to view the system as "fundamentally broken". This makes total sense to me now. I don't have any *solutions* to the problem, mind you, but at least now I understand what before seemed like some sort of bizarre anomaly where literally thousands of people use setuptools and many dozens actually express their happiness with or even love for the system, and then others hate it like they hate Microsoft, or worse. ;-) Meanwhile, from the "outsiders" point of view, setuptools looks like the Matrix or the Borg, happily assimilating the masses, who then start coming to you and say, "But you'll be so much happier once you join us..." ...and off in the distance, you hear a quiet rumbling of zombies chanting "eeeeggs.... eeeeggggs.... mussst havve eggggssss!" :) Hm. So it seems to me that maybe one thing that would help is a "Setuptools Haters' Guide To Setuptools" -- that is, *short* documentation specifically written for people who don't want to use setuptools and want to minimize its impact on their systems. I could probably write something like that fairly easily, now that I have some idea of what to go in it, more than, "the existing documentation sucks". :) Can I count on some non-assimilated persons' help in critiquing such a document and suggesting any topics I miss?