New subject: [Distutils] Wow, I think I actually *get* it now!

March 20, 2008

      At 10:08 PM 3/20/2008 +0000, glyph@divmod.com wrote (off-list):
...
No, but in no situation, except one (where I was extremely pressed 
for time) was I actually attempting to use setuptools to use any of 
its features.  My experience of it is: "If a project uses distutils 
or apt, installation probably works.  If it uses setuptools, it 
probably throws a traceback or a wall of text explaining why my 
environment is inadequate to perform the installation."  Other 
people chose to use it and in so doing broke my setup.  Manually 
copying a few files in these cases was a _lot_ easier than 
attempting to diagnose and repair software that I didn't even want to use.
I am not interesting in packaging or distribution.  Far from it: I 
run all of my software out of an SVN checkout and I _detest_ being 
involved in discussions of deployment or installation.
...
However, the general message of the negative subjective experience I 
have had while using setuptools is not FUD.  It's an accurate 
portrayal of a great deal of frustration.  setuptools has, to this 
date, not solved a single problem for *me*, personally or 
professionally, but it has caused many.  distutils, despite its many 
flaws, has actually solved quite a few.
Actually, this information is VERY helpful.  It makes it blindingly 
obvious to me now that the difference between loving and hating 
setuptools is whether you're *intentionally* using it, or whether it 
shows up in your ecosystem uninvited.  It also makes the difference 
in whether you get involved: with no investment in the tool itself, 
you have minimal motivation to RTFM, ask questions, or fix bugs.  And 
when people in this scenario *do* communicate to me or the 
distutils-sig, they are much more likely to be impatient and hostile, 
and more likely to view the system as "fundamentally broken".

This makes total sense to me now.  I don't have any *solutions* to 
the problem, mind you, but at least now I understand what before 
seemed like some sort of bizarre anomaly where literally thousands of 
people use setuptools and many dozens actually express their 
happiness with or even love for the system, and then others hate it 
like they hate Microsoft, or worse.  ;-)

Meanwhile, from the "outsiders" point of view, setuptools looks like 
the Matrix or the Borg, happily assimilating the masses, who then 
start coming to you and say, "But you'll be so much happier once you 
join us..."  ...and off in the distance, you hear a quiet rumbling of 
zombies chanting "eeeeggs....  eeeeggggs....  mussst havve eggggssss!"  :)

Hm.  So it seems to me that maybe one thing that would help is a 
"Setuptools Haters' Guide To Setuptools" -- that is, *short* 
documentation specifically written for people who don't want to use 
setuptools and want to minimize its impact on their systems.  I could 
probably write something like that fairly easily, now that I have 
some idea of what to go in it, more than, "the existing documentation 
sucks".  :)

Can I count on some non-assimilated persons' help in critiquing such 
a document and suggesting any topics I miss?

Wow, I think I actually get it now!

Phillip J. Eby

Paul Moore

phil jones

Robert Brewer

zooko

Paul Moore

phil jones

Robert Brewer

zooko

tags

participants (5)