Visual studio 2005 express now free
Microsoft just announced that Visual Studio 2005 express will be free forever, including the IDE and the optimizing C++ compiler. (Not included in the "forever" clause are VS 2007 or later versions.) Does this make a difference for Python development for Windows? http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/ -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
Guido van Rossum wrote:
Microsoft just announced that Visual Studio 2005 express will be free forever, including the IDE and the optimizing C++ compiler. (Not included in the "forever" clause are VS 2007 or later versions.)
Does this make a difference for Python development for Windows?
For future versions, perhaps. For 2.5, I think we now have settled on VS 2003, for several reasons: - I personally consider VS 2005 still verdant (crude? immature? unfledged?). They can't really mean the whole breakage they have done to the C library. Also, I expect another release of VS after Vista, to cover all the new .NET API, and I hope that we can skip VS 2005 (although Vista gets delays, and so gets VS 2007) - Fredrik Lundh points out that it would be nice if people producing extensions for multiple Python releases wouldn't need a separate compiler for each release. - Paul Moore has contributed a Python build procedure for the free version of the 2003 compiler. This one is without IDE, but still, it should allow people without a VS 2003 license to work on Python itself; it should also be possible to develop extensions with that compiler (although I haven't verified that distutils would pick that up correctly). Regards, Martin
Martin v. Löwis wrote:
- Paul Moore has contributed a Python build procedure for the free version of the 2003 compiler. This one is without IDE, but still, it should allow people without a VS 2003 license to work on Python itself; it should also be possible to develop extensions with that compiler (although I haven't verified that distutils would pick that up correctly).
It's been possible to compile distutils extensions with the VS 2003 toolkit for far longer than it's possible to compile Python itself: http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/mstoolkit/ In fact, it would be great if the patches provided here were reviewed and integrated into the official Python distutils. -- Giovanni Bajo
Giovanni Bajo wrote:
It's been possible to compile distutils extensions with the VS 2003 toolkit for far longer than it's possible to compile Python itself: http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/mstoolkit/
Sure: with distutils modifications.
In fact, it would be great if the patches provided here were reviewed and integrated into the official Python distutils.
Something like this should already be in Python 2.5. I just haven't tested it in this configuration. Regards, Martin
On 4/21/06, "Martin v. Löwis" <martin@v.loewis.de> wrote:
- Paul Moore has contributed a Python build procedure for the free version of the 2003 compiler. This one is without IDE, but still, it should allow people without a VS 2003 license to work on Python itself; it should also be possible to develop extensions with that compiler (although I haven't verified that distutils would pick that up correctly).
It works fine. You need to set PATH, INCLUDE, and LIB appropriately, and set MSSdk (to anything, but the SDK install location is what it's meant to be) so that distutils assumes the environment is right and doesn't check the registry. I'll see if I can find some time to write a doc patch - it can go alongside the "building using mingw" section. Paul.
Martin v. Löwis wrote:
- Paul Moore has contributed a Python build procedure for the free version of the 2003 compiler. This one is without IDE, but still, it should allow people without a VS 2003 license to work on Python itself; it should also be possible to develop extensions with that compiler (although I haven't verified that distutils would pick that up correctly).
Apparently, the status of this changed right now: it seems that the 2003 compiler is not available anymore; the page now says that it was replaced with the 2005 compiler. Should we reconsider? Regards, Martin
Martin v. Löwis:
Apparently, the status of this changed right now: it seems that the 2003 compiler is not available anymore; the page now says that it was replaced with the 2005 compiler.
Should we reconsider?
I expect Microsoft means that Visual Studio Express will be available free forever, not that you will always be able to download Visual Studio 2005 Express. They normally only provide a particular product version for a limited time after it has been superceded. Neil
On 4/24/06, Neil Hodgson <nyamatongwe@gmail.com> wrote:
Martin v. Löwis:
Apparently, the status of this changed right now: it seems that the 2003 compiler is not available anymore; the page now says that it was replaced with the 2005 compiler.
Should we reconsider?
I expect Microsoft means that Visual Studio Express will be available free forever, not that you will always be able to download Visual Studio 2005 Express. They normally only provide a particular product version for a limited time after it has been superceded.
No. Martin means that http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/vctoolkit2003/ no longer points to a downloadable version of MSVC which includes the optimizer, and generates VC 7.1 compatible binaries. This means that unless you've already downloaded it, or it's acceptable for someone else to host it, there's once again no way to build Python with free tools :-( (Is it worth the PSF asking MS if it's acceptable for python.org to host a copy of the toolkit compiler? As MS donated copies of MSVC 7.1 to the Python project, they may be willing to consider this...) Paul.
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Paul Moore wrote:
On 4/24/06, Neil Hodgson <nyamatongwe@gmail.com> wrote:
Martin v. Löwis:
Apparently, the status of this changed right now: it seems that the 2003 compiler is not available anymore; the page now says that it was replaced with the 2005 compiler.
Should we reconsider? [...] No. Martin means that http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/vctoolkit2003/ no longer points to a downloadable version of MSVC which includes the optimizer, and generates VC 7.1 compatible binaries.
This means that unless you've already downloaded it, or it's acceptable for someone else to host it, there's once again no way to build Python with free tools :-( [...]
Actually, it's apparently still there, just at a different URL. Somebody posted the new URL on c.l.py a day or two back (Alex Martelli started the thread, IIRC). I'm off to the dentist, no time to Google for it! John
On Apr 24, 2006, at 5:13 AM, John J Lee wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Paul Moore wrote:
On 4/24/06, Neil Hodgson <nyamatongwe@gmail.com> wrote:
Martin v. Löwis:
Apparently, the status of this changed right now: it seems that the 2003 compiler is not available anymore; the page now says that it was replaced with the 2005 compiler.
Should we reconsider? [...] No. Martin means that http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/ vctoolkit2003/ no longer points to a downloadable version of MSVC which includes the optimizer, and generates VC 7.1 compatible binaries.
This means that unless you've already downloaded it, or it's acceptable for someone else to host it, there's once again no way to build Python with free tools :-( [...]
Actually, it's apparently still there, just at a different URL. Somebody posted the new URL on c.l.py a day or two back (Alex Martelli started the thread, IIRC). I'm off to the dentist, no time to Google for it!
Yep, I was the one looking for that URL, and then at somebody else's request reposted it and also tinyurled it (since it's a very long URL it gives somebody problems). For the Toolkit 2003: http://tinyurl.com/gv8wr Also, for the Net SDK 1.1 (the 2.0 one apparently now is lacking the msvcrt.lib for x86...): http://tinyurl.com/5flob (original Url for the latter kindly supplied by Martin, btw). Martin also suggested using mingw instead, on that same thread. Alex
Alex Martelli wrote:
For the Toolkit 2003: http://tinyurl.com/gv8wr
When I go to this URL, I get redirected to http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=272BE09D-40BB-4&displaylang=en This doesn't look right - it ought to be a UUID. Anyway, I get a page that reads "The download you requested is unavailable. If you continue to see this message when trying to access this download, go to the "Search for a Download" area on the Download Center home page." both with Firefox and MSIE. Regards, Martin
John J Lee wrote:
Actually, it's apparently still there, just at a different URL. Somebody posted the new URL on c.l.py a day or two back (Alex Martelli started the thread, IIRC). I'm off to the dentist, no time to Google for it!
Please do. If you find the URL, please post it here. All URLs I found don't work (anymore). Regards, Martin
On Apr 24, 2006, at 1:24 AM, Paul Moore wrote:
On 4/24/06, Neil Hodgson <nyamatongwe@gmail.com> wrote:
Martin v. Löwis:
Apparently, the status of this changed right now: it seems that the 2003 compiler is not available anymore; the page now says that it was replaced with the 2005 compiler.
Should we reconsider?
I expect Microsoft means that Visual Studio Express will be available free forever, not that you will always be able to download Visual Studio 2005 Express. They normally only provide a particular product version for a limited time after it has been superceded.
No. Martin means that http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/vctoolkit2003/ no longer points to a downloadable version of MSVC which includes the optimizer, and generates VC 7.1 compatible binaries.
This means that unless you've already downloaded it, or it's acceptable for someone else to host it, there's once again no way to build Python with free tools :-(
I've posted a couple of tinyurl's that may help (no time right now to try everything out again myself).
(Is it worth the PSF asking MS if it's acceptable for python.org to host a copy of the toolkit compiler? As MS donated copies of MSVC 7.1 to the Python project, they may be willing to consider this...)
Small as the chance may be, it's still most definitely worth asking, so that everything doesn't suddenly break the instant MS wants to withdraw the URLs that currently still work. Also, we'd need the ability to redistribute the 1.1 SDK, as the 2.0 one seems to lack the key msvcrt.lib for x86. Alex
On Apr 24, 2006, at 12:48 AM, Neil Hodgson wrote:
Martin v. Löwis:
Apparently, the status of this changed right now: it seems that the 2003 compiler is not available anymore; the page now says that it was replaced with the 2005 compiler.
Should we reconsider?
I expect Microsoft means that Visual Studio Express will be available free forever, not that you will always be able to download Visual Studio 2005 Express. They normally only provide a particular product version for a limited time after it has been superceded.
Yeah, that does sound like a normal commercial policy. If we want some compiler to be available "forever", we have to choose one that we can get permission to redistribute, and host it somewhere ourselves. Alex
Neil Hodgson wrote:
I expect Microsoft means that Visual Studio Express will be available free forever, not that you will always be able to download Visual Studio 2005 Express. They normally only provide a particular product version for a limited time after it has been superceded.
Sure: they will remove download access to VS 2005 when VS 2007 comes available. Still, VS 2005 is available for download right now, and VS 2003 isn't (anymore). Regards, Martin
""Martin v. Löwis"" <martin@v.loewis.de> wrote in message news:444D5A44.2020602@v.loewis.de...
Sure: they will remove download access to VS 2005 when VS 2007 comes available. Still, VS 2005 is available for download right now, and VS 2003 isn't (anymore).
Just yesterday, I downloaded the 2003 Toolkit using the link posted to c.l.p. I don't need it now, but though I should grab it 'just in case'. Retrying the link, it seems the future arrived already. Since, as I remember, there was no license agreement for the download, just for the install (if/when I do it), I should think it legal to send the file to someone else. But I don't really know, of course. Terry Jan Reedy
Terry Reedy wrote:
Since, as I remember, there was no license agreement for the download, just for the install (if/when I do it), I should think it legal to send the file to someone else. But I don't really know, of course.
Going by the download page for 2005, it does not have any restrictions on the page: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualc/download/ so it seems plausible that vc2003 did not have such restrictions, either. However, the bottom of the page has a link (Terms of Use) to http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.mspx which says WITHOUT LIMITING THE FOREGOING, COPYING OR REPRODUCTION OF THE SOFTWARE TO ANY OTHER SERVER OR LOCATION FOR FURTHER REPRODUCTION OR REDISTRIBUTION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED, UNLESS SUCH REPRODUCTION OR REDISTRIBUTION IS EXPRESSLY PERMITTED BY THE LICENSE AGREEMENT ACCOMPANYING SUCH SOFTWARE. So I guess they don't want you to provide copies of that file. Regards, Martin
"Neil Hodgson" <nyamatongwe@gmail.com> writes:
Martin v. Löwis:
Apparently, the status of this changed right now: it seems that the 2003 compiler is not available anymore; the page now says that it was replaced with the 2005 compiler.
Should we reconsider?
I expect Microsoft means that Visual Studio Express will be available free forever, not that you will always be able to download Visual Studio 2005 Express.
I don't think that's what Herb Sutter said in his ACCU keynote, which is where I'm pretty sure Guido got his information at the start of this thread (he was there too and the email appeared soon after). If I remember right, he said that 2005 was free, forever, and they'd think about later versions. I may be misremembering, and I certainly haven't read any official stuff from Microsoft... Cheers, mwh -- I also feel it essential to note, [...], that Description Logics, non-Monotonic Logics, Default Logics and Circumscription Logics can all collectively go suck a cow. Thank you. -- http://advogato.org/person/Johnath/diary.html?start=4
python-dev-bounces+python=theyoungfamily.co.uk@python.org wrote on 25/04/2006 13:22:27:
"Neil Hodgson" <nyamatongwe@gmail.com> writes:
Martin v. Löwis:
Apparently, the status of this changed right now: it seems that the 2003 compiler is not available anymore; the page now says that it was replaced with the 2005 compiler.
Should we reconsider?
I expect Microsoft means that Visual Studio Express will be available free forever, not that you will always be able to download Visual Studio 2005 Express.
I don't think that's what Herb Sutter said in his ACCU keynote, which is where I'm pretty sure Guido got his information at the start of this thread (he was there too and the email appeared soon after). If I remember right, he said that 2005 was free, forever, and they'd think about later versions. I may be misremembering, and I certainly haven't read any official stuff from Microsoft...
Hi Michael, I was there and that's how I remember it too. Cheers, Ben
Cheers, mwh
-- I also feel it essential to note, [...], that Description Logics, non-Monotonic Logics, Default Logics and Circumscription Logics can all collectively go suck a cow. Thank you. -- http://advogato.org/person/Johnath/diary.html?start=4 _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python- dev/python%40theyoungfamily.co.uk
On Apr 24, 2006, at 12:19 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
Martin v. Löwis wrote:
- Paul Moore has contributed a Python build procedure for the free version of the 2003 compiler. This one is without IDE, but still, it should allow people without a VS 2003 license to work on Python itself; it should also be possible to develop extensions with that compiler (although I haven't verified that distutils would pick that up correctly).
Apparently, the status of this changed right now: it seems that the 2003 compiler is not available anymore; the page now says that it was replaced with the 2005 compiler.
Should we reconsider?
Personally, being a cheapskate, and with Windows only my tertiary system, I'm in favor of anything that makes it simpler and/or cheaper for people to work on Python and extensions. However, by the same token I cannot really gauge how stable and solid VS 2005 is -- if as current Windows experts you think it's still inferior to VS 2003, then that's a very big point against it. Alex
""Martin v. Löwis"" <martin@v.loewis.de> wrote in message news:44491299.9040607@v.loewis.de...
- Paul Moore has contributed a Python build procedure for the free version of the 2003 compiler. This one is without IDE, but still, it should allow people without a VS 2003 license to work on Python itself; it should also be possible to develop extensions with that compiler (although I haven't verified that distutils would pick that up correctly).
AFAIR Paul Moore was based on some other instructions posted previously somewhere on the net, which I followed at least a year back; it was a little hard to fix all variables etc, but I managed to build for 2.4 an extension of mine (haar transformation for image comparisons) successfully using just the setup.py of my module.
participants (11)
-
"Martin v. Löwis" -
Alex Martelli -
Ben.Young＠risk.sungard.com -
Christos Georgiou -
Giovanni Bajo -
Guido van Rossum -
John J Lee -
Michael Hudson -
Neil Hodgson -
Paul Moore -
Terry Reedy