Say a startup company decided to put some resources behind the Python Web site -- a full-time Web master, some content developers, etc. What would you have them do? What could be done to open up the site to the community and make it more responsive to developers and users? What's your wish list for content, services, etc.? If you've got any ideas, please get back to me soon. Jeremy
Jeremy Hylton <jeremy@beopen.com>:
Say a startup company decided to put some resources behind the Python Web site -- a full-time Web master, some content developers, etc. What would you have them do? What could be done to open up the site to the community and make it more responsive to developers and users? What's your wish list for content, services, etc.?
I think it's pretty good as is -- lots of content, pretty well organized. My top wishlist item is "Burn all your GIFs". -- <a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr">Eric S. Raymond</a> The right of self-defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." -- Henry St. George Tucker (in Blackstone's Commentaries)
[Jeremy Hylton]
Say a startup company decided to put some resources behind the Python Web site -- a full-time Web master, some content developers, etc. What would you have them do? What could be done to open up the site to the community and make it more responsive to developers and users? What's your wish list for content, services, etc.?
The content is good. Some wishes on its presentation, not taking into account any cosmetic changes. With my webmaster's hat, I would say: 1. Make the content accessible, i.e. compliant to the standards HTML tidy does a pretty good job in cleaning up existing Web pages I would suggest sticking with valid XHTML 1.0 transitional or HTML 4.x transitional. 2. Use CSS -- not too much, though, given its growing but still limited support. I am using myself parts of CSS1. My approach is to use styles *and* attributes (which is redundant, for now). Browsers that understand styles would honor them, while those that don't would take into account the attributes. The aim is to have the same end result. With the evolution of the browsers, the attributes would disappear. A compromise that introduces styles smoothly. 3. Have a comprehensible site map for direct access to the major topics. I tend to like ours which is convenient for small to medium sized sites (http://www.inrialpes.fr/plansite.html) 4. Do not use frames, do not use JavaScript or similar, do not use anything that hurts content accessibility. [Eric S. Raymond]
My top wishlist item is "Burn all your GIFs".
This seems to be an important symbol for an organization with an Open Source spirit. Hopefully, a gif2png batch processing should make things easier. -- Vladimir MARANGOZOV | Vladimir.Marangozov@inrialpes.fr http://sirac.inrialpes.fr/~marangoz | tel:(+33-4)76615277 fax:76615252
Vladimir Marangozov writes:
2. Use CSS -- not too much, though, given its growing but still limited support. I am using myself parts of CSS1. My approach is to use styles *and* attributes (which is redundant, for now). Browsers that understand styles would honor them, while those that don't would take into account the attributes. The aim is to have the same end result. With the evolution of the browsers, the attributes would disappear.
The approach to CSS I've taken with the documentation is to use attributes for anything that's really needed to make the presentation readable and then an external CSS stylesheet for everything else. This seems like a reasonable approach to me, and avoids including too much duplicate information. This also seems like the best way to maintain support for older browsers. Perhaps we should collect browser statistics on python.org so we'll know how many "legacy" browsers are in use? I would be surprised if many of the text-mode browsers support CSS well (and there are several being actively worked on these days, so please don't tell me they don't count!).
4. Do not use frames, do not use JavaScript or similar, do not use anything that hurts content accessibility.
I do have some JavaScript on python.org, but it's only to make data entry in a form a little easier by making adjustments to related fields, so it remains completely operational without JavaScript. I don't think there's currently any required JavaScript. And I have yet to see a frame, thank goodness! [Eric S. Raymond]
My top wishlist item is "Burn all your GIFs".
Is it more important than accessibility? This is a real issue for legacy browsers, especially on minority platforms. One of the big wins for Python is that it is as portable as it is. Does that matter if information is hard to get to? A good reason to avoid using images for anything that isn't cosmetic! -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at beopen.com> BeOpen PythonLabs Team Member
Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake@beopen.com>:
[Eric S. Raymond]
My top wishlist item is "Burn all your GIFs".
Is it more important than accessibility? This is a real issue for legacy browsers, especially on minority platforms. One of the big wins for Python is that it is as portable as it is. Does that matter if information is hard to get to?
Go check out the PNG site's census of PNG support in "legacy" browsers. Basically, as long as your PNGs don't use transparency or animation, you're fine. You've already had the good taste to eschew animation. I don't think you're using transparency anywhere that simply matteing the image on a white background won't fix it -- and gif2png has an option to do that.
A good reason to avoid using images for anything that isn't cosmetic!
I agree with that. -- <a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr">Eric S. Raymond</a> Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim -- when he defends himself -- as a criminal. -- Frederic Bastiat, "The Law"
Eric S. Raymond writes:
Go check out the PNG site's census of PNG support in "legacy" browsers. Basically, as long as your PNGs don't use transparency or animation, you're fine. You've already had the good taste to eschew
Excellent! I'll review the list next week probably. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. <fdrake at beopen.com> BeOpen PythonLabs Team Member
Jeremy Hylton wrote:
Say a startup company decided to put some resources behind the Python Web site -- a full-time Web master, some content developers, etc. What would you have them do? What could be done to open up the site to the community and make it more responsive to developers and users? What's your wish list for content, services, etc.?
If you've got any ideas, please get back to me soon.
Why not turn python.org into a Python portal site with all the jazz that goes with it, e.g. newsletters, browsable news forums for different news aspects (business news, new developments, press references, Python related meetings, etc.), customization of the information layout, email notification when things change, chat forums, a Python knowledge base, etc. etc. The reasoning is that Python is starting to go business and the site should reflect this move. As more companies start producing Python tools, I think it might even be worthwhile considering Python related marketing on the Python site, e.g. small banners, external links, etc. This would help finance the site and its administrators. As far as content goes, I think Python.org is hardly beatable :-) What's missing is some more service to push its fun factor which in return pushes Python's acceptance. Anyway, just a thought... -- Marc-Andre Lemburg ______________________________________________________________________ Business: http://www.lemburg.com/ Python Pages: http://www.lemburg.com/python/
On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Jeremy Hylton wrote:
Say a startup company decided to put some resources behind the Python Web site -- a full-time Web master, some content developers, etc. What would you have them do? What could be done to open up the site to the community and make it more responsive to developers and users? What's your wish list for content, services, etc.?
If you've got any ideas, please get back to me soon.
Here's some suggestions - i put things more important to me closer to the top, more or less. 1. Delegation of sections to individuals or groups. Eg: - topic guides - particular people get management of areas. (Of course, i'd do this with zope, including zwiki pages as well as regular zope documents for the respective topic-guide managers to use in constructing their content - and for delegating or openning up portions of *their* sections to others...) - The humor page (i'm sad to see that languishing) - Other incidental stuff in the Documentation section of the current site 2. Community-contributed news and hints - portal-style membership/ contribution of news items, reviewed for release or rejection (maybe with community-based reviewers voting) 3. Vaults of parnassus already does this, but i'll still mention - Contributed software/docs/etc - managed similar to moderated news postings, but with classification/cataloguing of artifacts, ability for people to vote on desirability for ranking purposes 5. Jobs board - job postings possibly also managed with news-style reviewing process 6. Subscription to pages, to get notifcations when they change (probably batched, so people don't get too many as something is undergoing development). 7. Discussion "area" for coordinating and collecting logs of IRC-style chats when hot-topics arise that need rendezvous. 8. Open community wiki(s) for growing interesting little worlds (and with my new zwiki nesting-organization features, it may not be too chaotic). Ken klm@digicool.com
Ken Manheimer said 3. Vaults of parnassus already does this, but i'll still mention - Contributed software/docs/etc - managed similar to moderated news postings, but with classification/cataloguing of artifacts, ability for people to vote on desirability for ranking purposes
I'd like to see the Vaults, Starship, and other sub-sites folded into, or become subsections of, a larger Python site, so that I've got the same kind of one-stop shopping that CPAN gives me. Thanks, Greg
Greg Wilson <gvwilson@nevex.com>:
Ken Manheimer said 3. Vaults of parnassus already does this, but i'll still mention - Contributed software/docs/etc - managed similar to moderated news postings, but with classification/cataloguing of artifacts, ability for people to vote on desirability for ranking purposes
I'd like to see the Vaults, Starship, and other sub-sites folded into, or become subsections of, a larger Python site, so that I've got the same kind of one-stop shopping that CPAN gives me.
Second that. -- <a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr">Eric S. Raymond</a> Such are a well regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen. -- "M.T. Cicero", in a newspaper letter of 1788 touching the "militia" referred to in the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 02:45:37PM -0400, Greg Wilson wrote:
Ken Manheimer said 3. Vaults of parnassus already does this, but i'll still mention - Contributed software/docs/etc - managed similar to moderated news postings, but with classification/cataloguing of artifacts, ability for people to vote on desirability for ranking purposes
I'd like to see the Vaults, Starship, and other sub-sites folded into, or become subsections of, a larger Python site, so that I've got the same kind of one-stop shopping that CPAN gives me.
+1 on that! If python.org opens up (beyond what was possible w.r.t CNRI's security policy), then I see a lot of the impetus for separate sites, such as Starship and Parnassus, simply disappearing. While we're at it: Python-URL has some funny location that I can't ever remember. Providing a way for the organizers to publish those onto python.org (and maintain the archive there) would be good. If /F is still doing the daily URL, then it could go there, too... Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
"GM" == Gordon McMillan <gmcm@hypernet.com> writes:
From Ken Manheimer's Python web site wishlist: - The humor page (i'm sad to see that languishing)
GM> A weekly nude Tim Peters jpeg! We were going to keep those on the pythonlabs.com internal site, but if Tim doesn't object... Jeremy
On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Jeremy Hylton wrote:
"GM" == Gordon McMillan <gmcm@hypernet.com> writes:
From Ken Manheimer's Python web site wishlist: - The humor page (i'm sad to see that languishing)
GM> A weekly nude Tim Peters jpeg!
We were going to keep those on the pythonlabs.com internal site, but if Tim doesn't object...
Anything for a buck, ay, now that you're in the commercial world?-) Ken klm@digicool.com
[KenM]
- The humor page (i'm sad to see that languishing)
[Gordon, as always, guides our youth]
A weekly nude Tim Peters jpeg!
[JeremyH]
We were going to keep those on the pythonlabs.com internal site, but if Tim doesn't object...
[KenM]
Anything for a buck, ay, now that you're in the commercial world?-)
After one of my recent "going away" parties here (I "get to" move to VA next week), a group of old chums were sitting around the restaurant table, belching up bad Italian cooking and speculating on our places in God's Inscrutable Plan. When it came time to pick on me, one naturally pugnacious fellow-- emboldened beyond his normal aggression by wine --looked me straight in the eye and demanded to know if there's *anything* I wouldn't do for money. Well, in point of fact I believe there are a great many such things, but in the moment God only inspired me with one, and so I heard myself retorting: "Ya, sure, I'd fuck a dog for science ... but I wouldn't take a job at Microsoft!". strangely-enough-i-think-that's-backwards-ly y'rs - tim
On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Tim Peters wrote:
In the moment God only inspired me with one, and so I heard myself retorting: "Ya, sure, I'd fuck a dog for science ... but I wouldn't take a job at Microsoft!".
strangely-enough-i-think-that's-backwards-ly y'rs - tim
Backwards? You mean you'd fuck Microsoft for science but wouldn't take a job at a dog? Or you'd fuck a dog for Microsoft but wouldn't take a job at science? Or you'd take a job for science, but wouldn't fuck at Microsoft? misunderstanding-tim-seems-to-be-a-common-pass-time-around-here-ly y'rs, Z -- Moshe Zadka <moshez@math.huji.ac.il> http://www.oreilly.com/news/prescod_0300.html http://www.linux.org.il -- we put the penguin in .com Return-Path: <moshez@math.huji.ac.il> Delivered-To: python-dev@python.org Received: from math.ma.huji.ac.il (ma.huji.ac.il [132.64.32.5]) by dinsdale.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C19A61CD28; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (moshez@localhost) by math.ma.huji.ac.il (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28640; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:37:03 +0300 (IDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:37:03 +0300 (IDT) From: Moshe Zadka <moshez@math.huji.ac.il> X-Sender: moshez@sundial Reply-To: Moshe Zadka <moshez@math.huji.ac.il> To: perl_monkey@my-deja.com Cc: python-list@python.org, s2mdalle@titan.vcu.edu In-Reply-To: <8hrbph$a4n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10006092133190.28574-100000@sundial> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [Python-Dev] Re: Porting CPython Sender: python-dev-admin@python.org Errors-To: python-dev-admin@python.org X-BeenThere: python-dev@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta3 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Python core developers <python-dev.python.org> Not a lot I can help you with, but: On Fri, 9 Jun 2000 perl_monkey@my-deja.com wrote:
- Excluding Modules
What is the build procedure for omitting certain built in C modules? (I"m talking about the stuff in Modules/)
Edit the "Setup.in" file. Instructions for how are inside the file, but if you have any more specific questions, please ask again.
Any help on any of these issues would be appreciated. Also, when/if I finish this, I'd be willing to diff the source and put it into the main python branch if that's something people would be interested in.
I'm CCing Python-Dev on this, so hopefully someone from the BeOpen team can respond. I can just say I'm for it. (Python-dev is on BCC so replies to this won't automatically go there.) -- Moshe Zadka <moshez@math.huji.ac.il> http://www.oreilly.com/news/prescod_0300.html http://www.linux.org.il -- we put the penguin in .com
participants (11)
-
Eric S. Raymond -
Fred L. Drake, Jr. -
Gordon McMillan -
Greg Stein -
Greg Wilson -
Jeremy Hylton -
Ken Manheimer -
M.-A. Lemburg -
Moshe Zadka -
Tim Peters -
Vladimir.Marangozov＠inrialpes.fr