Support for Python/Windows
Devs: I've been in correspondence with Microsoft about the provision of software, and it transpires that if you want to support Windows better Microsoft will be quite liberal about licensing: they will *give* you a Microsoft Developer Network license. If you are interested in offering better Windows support then please read the email below (note: Windows buildbot support would be a qualifying activity) and let me have the required details. I will pass them to Tom in bulk to simplify the processing. Note that I'm not following python-dev right now due to pressure of work, so PLEASE EMAIL ME DIRECTLY (or Cc me on your list replies) to make sure I get your information. Thanks! regards Steve -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: Support for Python: Windows Buildbots Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 08:52:10 -0700 From: Tom Hanrahan For the purposes of providing MSDN licenses to an open source development community, I consider anyone who writes, builds, tests or documents software to be a "developer who contributes" to the project. (In fact, having started out as a test engineer, I would take exception to anyone who claimed only people who write code are "developers" :-) We do ask that requests are for people who are active contributors and not just minor/occasional participants. [...] Here's what we need for each request: First Name Last Name Email Address (the subscription will be sent here, and this will also be used to log into the MSDN site) Project/Company (Python Software Foundation) Complete Mailing Address (Street Address) (City), (State/Province) (Postal or Zip Code) (Country) Phone Number -- Tom -----Original Message----- From: Steve Holden [mailto:steve@holdenweb.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 6:01 AM To: Tom Hanrahan Cc: Anandeep Pannu; Pat Campbell; Python Board; Jim Hugunin Subject: Re: Support for Python: Windows Buildbots Tom: Further to Sam's email, in fact the original inquiry was instituted by the need of our part-time administrator to acquire an Office license. I am guessing she wouldn't qualify as an Open Source Developer, but that least naturally to the more interesting question of who would. A Bing search for "Microsoft Open Source Developer Program" didn't yield any usable hits, so it might be helpful if you could point me to some web resources that will help me make sense of what's available, who's eligible and how they apply for it. I will be happy to publicize the details to the development team. It's true, I believe, that most of the core Python developers use Linux, but both Tim Peters and I are primarily on the Windows platform. What's more, with the emergence of virtualization environments having Linux on your desktop is no hindrance to running Windows in a virtual machine (I run Linux on virtuals when appropriate). So let's take it from here and see where we go. regards Steve Sam Ramji wrote:
[...] -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ Watch PyCon on video now! http://pycon.blip.tv/
Steve Holden wrote:
[...]
MSDN subscriptions include copies of most Microsoft products (including Office and Exchange) for use while developing and testing software. For more details, check here - we provide Visual Studio Pro with MSDN Premium under this program (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/subscriptions/subscriptionschart.aspx).
Thanks you for getting in touch with Microsoft. The deal is worth a fortune for any Windows developer! Does the MSDN subscription also include the permission to create and release binaries? Sam Ramji wrote just "developing and testing". Me and probably all other subscribers like to use the MSDN subscription to build Windows binaries of Python and Python related extensions. Can you please verify that we are allowed to use the subscription for that purpose, too? Christian
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Christian Heimes <lists@cheimes.de> wrote:
Considering that the compilers are all freely downloadable as part of the Windows SDK, it would be weird if the subscription were *more* restrictive than what you can get without it. Disclaimer: I work for Microsoft, but eh, I'm just guessing. -- Curt Hagenlocher curt@hagenlocher.org
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Christian Heimes<lists@cheimes.de> wrote:
Ah, you're right -- the PGO bits probably need VS Pro. The 64-bit compilers should be in the Windows SDK, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were not included in Express. -- Curt Hagenlocher curt@hagenlocher.org
Christian Heimes wrote:
I'll ask. I don't see why not (it would hardly be in Microsoft's interest to help us create unreleasable open source projects, would it?) regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ Watch PyCon on video now! http://pycon.blip.tv/
Hi ! On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Steve Holden<steve@holdenweb.com> wrote:
When talking about MS + FOSS everything is possible :-/ My question is the following : - What are the implications for Py users ? I mean, even if somebody (not me but enterprises & organizations I work or may work for in the future ;o) decides to use Windows pay for that and everything else, I'd not like to qualify as a "pirate" (or alike) for using a Py distribution or app including MS Intelectual Property (MSIP) (and MS loves MSIP -even if nobody can see it- and all kind of legal issues, especially with FOSS) nor even have Py in the middle of a patent dispute or something ... And they have some "great" innovations [1]_ to ensure (sometimes, I know) that (some) apps (who decides ?) wont run on a Win host. I could mention a lot of snippets in that text (yes it's very "interesting" and "substantial", and "useful" ) here goes one of them : {{{ According to another aspect of the invention, the digest catalog includes, for each program file corresponding to an application or driver that should be executable by the computer, a digitally signed hash value that is generated from a hash function based on the corresponding program file. When attempting to load a particular file, the loader generates a hash value and compares it to the decrypted hash values in the digest catalog. If the comparison results in no matches, then the corresponding program file (and thus the application or driver) is not loaded. }}} OTOH : - What are the implications for other devs (not core ;o) who use to download sources and try new things, or perhaps use Py code the way they want to solve an specific issue, or modify it somehow to experiment or learn something, or whatever ? - Will that affect contributions from «future or potential» devs ? - Will they also need an MS license to see or compile (or whatever) the changes contributed by Py devs ? - What about if for some reason, a idea or impl or alg or snippet (or whatever) is propagated to GNU/Linux distributions and it's MSIP? (considering former disputes like «Linux kernel violates 42 of MS patents») ? .. [1] Restricted software and hardware usage on a computer (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=7,536,726) PD: My question is not technical at all but at least for me is important (even if I'm not a lawyer, nor a core Py dev ;o) since I manage (and develop ;o) several Py-based apps running on Win hosts in different locations . Finally I clearly see that this msg is strongly influenced by my biases, paranoia, and maybe I'm overreacting ... but I prefer to ask before things actually happen (and MS has a long history specially with FOSS + patents + legal affaires). I apologize in advance if I'm being rude or naïve or * -- Regards, Olemis. Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/ Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/ Featured article:
My question is the following :
- What are the implications for Py users ?
After reading your message, I had a difficult time getting your point, or even finding out what your question is. So I stick with what you said is your question: What are the implications for Py users ? To this, the answer is mostly: none at all. There may be vague indirect effects (such as more Python software being available on Windows), but I doubt it will be significantly noticeable.
I can't follow here. Why would using a Py distribution or app that includes MSIP qualify you as a "pirate"? And why would Microsoft's making free (as in beer) tools available to Python contributors make you qualify more as a "pirate" than you are currently qualified as?
They can now get tools for free that they previously had to buy.
- Will that affect contributions from «future or potential» devs ?
This is an indirect effect; I doubt there is any noticable change (in particular as VS Express is free (as in beer) already).
- Will they also need an MS license to see or compile (or whatever) the changes contributed by Py devs ?
Not more than currently already, no. You may not be aware that Python is *already* compiled by MSVC on Windows.
Python contributors should always have the copyright to all changes they contribute. They should not contribute code owned by Microsoft, nor should they contribute code owned by anybody else (except themselves). The latter is the bigger problem: sometimes people contribute code that is owned by their employer, without an agreement of the employer.
I apologize in advance if I'm being rude or naïve or *
I didn't consider your message rude. It is perhaps naïve (apparently ignoring the status quo), but you don't have to apologize for that. Regards, Martin
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 2:43 PM, "Martin v. Löwis"<martin@v.loewis.de> wrote:
Well this being said, it seems to be cool.
Well it seems that this applies to core devs and I was talking about people not being Py core devs. But anyway, if everybody can still compile Py sources without worrying about further licensing side-effects (i.e. more than we have today ;) then the storm is gone.
Well my concern (and what I didnt understand) was that if some people, in this case core devs, (need | like to have) the license to do (use) something they cannot do (use) without the license then (possibly) everybody else (i.e. those not having the license) trying to reproduce what others did (e.g. compilation) had to purchase the license. If this is not the case, and non-core devs can do what they do the way they do it so far, then the storm is over ...
... and it seems that's the case ;o)
You may not be aware that Python is *already* compiled by MSVC on Windows.
Yes I am, but since I'm a frustrated lawyer I didnt understand a few things (and I couldnt sleep yesterday because of that ... XD ...)
Well I wanted to avoid flamewars or unnecessary disputes or whatever (you know, this licensing and FOSS vs proprietary debates may be complicated and sometimes people get excited /me included, of course : I'm human ;o) Thnx ! -- Regards, Olemis. Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/ Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/ Featured article:
Steve Holden wrote:
[...]
MSDN subscriptions include copies of most Microsoft products (including Office and Exchange) for use while developing and testing software. For more details, check here - we provide Visual Studio Pro with MSDN Premium under this program (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/subscriptions/subscriptionschart.aspx).
Thanks you for getting in touch with Microsoft. The deal is worth a fortune for any Windows developer! Does the MSDN subscription also include the permission to create and release binaries? Sam Ramji wrote just "developing and testing". Me and probably all other subscribers like to use the MSDN subscription to build Windows binaries of Python and Python related extensions. Can you please verify that we are allowed to use the subscription for that purpose, too? Christian
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Christian Heimes <lists@cheimes.de> wrote:
Considering that the compilers are all freely downloadable as part of the Windows SDK, it would be weird if the subscription were *more* restrictive than what you can get without it. Disclaimer: I work for Microsoft, but eh, I'm just guessing. -- Curt Hagenlocher curt@hagenlocher.org
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Christian Heimes<lists@cheimes.de> wrote:
Ah, you're right -- the PGO bits probably need VS Pro. The 64-bit compilers should be in the Windows SDK, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were not included in Express. -- Curt Hagenlocher curt@hagenlocher.org
Christian Heimes wrote:
I'll ask. I don't see why not (it would hardly be in Microsoft's interest to help us create unreleasable open source projects, would it?) regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ Watch PyCon on video now! http://pycon.blip.tv/
Hi ! On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Steve Holden<steve@holdenweb.com> wrote:
When talking about MS + FOSS everything is possible :-/ My question is the following : - What are the implications for Py users ? I mean, even if somebody (not me but enterprises & organizations I work or may work for in the future ;o) decides to use Windows pay for that and everything else, I'd not like to qualify as a "pirate" (or alike) for using a Py distribution or app including MS Intelectual Property (MSIP) (and MS loves MSIP -even if nobody can see it- and all kind of legal issues, especially with FOSS) nor even have Py in the middle of a patent dispute or something ... And they have some "great" innovations [1]_ to ensure (sometimes, I know) that (some) apps (who decides ?) wont run on a Win host. I could mention a lot of snippets in that text (yes it's very "interesting" and "substantial", and "useful" ) here goes one of them : {{{ According to another aspect of the invention, the digest catalog includes, for each program file corresponding to an application or driver that should be executable by the computer, a digitally signed hash value that is generated from a hash function based on the corresponding program file. When attempting to load a particular file, the loader generates a hash value and compares it to the decrypted hash values in the digest catalog. If the comparison results in no matches, then the corresponding program file (and thus the application or driver) is not loaded. }}} OTOH : - What are the implications for other devs (not core ;o) who use to download sources and try new things, or perhaps use Py code the way they want to solve an specific issue, or modify it somehow to experiment or learn something, or whatever ? - Will that affect contributions from «future or potential» devs ? - Will they also need an MS license to see or compile (or whatever) the changes contributed by Py devs ? - What about if for some reason, a idea or impl or alg or snippet (or whatever) is propagated to GNU/Linux distributions and it's MSIP? (considering former disputes like «Linux kernel violates 42 of MS patents») ? .. [1] Restricted software and hardware usage on a computer (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=7,536,726) PD: My question is not technical at all but at least for me is important (even if I'm not a lawyer, nor a core Py dev ;o) since I manage (and develop ;o) several Py-based apps running on Win hosts in different locations . Finally I clearly see that this msg is strongly influenced by my biases, paranoia, and maybe I'm overreacting ... but I prefer to ask before things actually happen (and MS has a long history specially with FOSS + patents + legal affaires). I apologize in advance if I'm being rude or naïve or * -- Regards, Olemis. Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/ Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/ Featured article:
My question is the following :
- What are the implications for Py users ?
After reading your message, I had a difficult time getting your point, or even finding out what your question is. So I stick with what you said is your question: What are the implications for Py users ? To this, the answer is mostly: none at all. There may be vague indirect effects (such as more Python software being available on Windows), but I doubt it will be significantly noticeable.
I can't follow here. Why would using a Py distribution or app that includes MSIP qualify you as a "pirate"? And why would Microsoft's making free (as in beer) tools available to Python contributors make you qualify more as a "pirate" than you are currently qualified as?
They can now get tools for free that they previously had to buy.
- Will that affect contributions from «future or potential» devs ?
This is an indirect effect; I doubt there is any noticable change (in particular as VS Express is free (as in beer) already).
- Will they also need an MS license to see or compile (or whatever) the changes contributed by Py devs ?
Not more than currently already, no. You may not be aware that Python is *already* compiled by MSVC on Windows.
Python contributors should always have the copyright to all changes they contribute. They should not contribute code owned by Microsoft, nor should they contribute code owned by anybody else (except themselves). The latter is the bigger problem: sometimes people contribute code that is owned by their employer, without an agreement of the employer.
I apologize in advance if I'm being rude or naïve or *
I didn't consider your message rude. It is perhaps naïve (apparently ignoring the status quo), but you don't have to apologize for that. Regards, Martin
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 2:43 PM, "Martin v. Löwis"<martin@v.loewis.de> wrote:
Well this being said, it seems to be cool.
Well it seems that this applies to core devs and I was talking about people not being Py core devs. But anyway, if everybody can still compile Py sources without worrying about further licensing side-effects (i.e. more than we have today ;) then the storm is gone.
Well my concern (and what I didnt understand) was that if some people, in this case core devs, (need | like to have) the license to do (use) something they cannot do (use) without the license then (possibly) everybody else (i.e. those not having the license) trying to reproduce what others did (e.g. compilation) had to purchase the license. If this is not the case, and non-core devs can do what they do the way they do it so far, then the storm is over ...
... and it seems that's the case ;o)
You may not be aware that Python is *already* compiled by MSVC on Windows.
Yes I am, but since I'm a frustrated lawyer I didnt understand a few things (and I couldnt sleep yesterday because of that ... XD ...)
Well I wanted to avoid flamewars or unnecessary disputes or whatever (you know, this licensing and FOSS vs proprietary debates may be complicated and sometimes people get excited /me included, of course : I'm human ;o) Thnx ! -- Regards, Olemis. Blog ES: http://simelo-es.blogspot.com/ Blog EN: http://simelo-en.blogspot.com/ Featured article:
participants (6)
-
"Martin v. Löwis" -
Christian Heimes -
Curt Hagenlocher -
Neil Hodgson -
Olemis Lang -
Steve Holden